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Political Philosophy

Discussion in 'Alley of Lingering Sighs' started by NOG (No Other Gods), Sep 24, 2008.

  1. Gnarfflinger

    Gnarfflinger Wiseguy in Training

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    I'm assuming that a passport will count for option 1...

    But then again, my mother would count for option 3...
     
  2. martaug Gems: 23/31
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    The only big problem i see with the way we do it here in nc is that most people now at least a couple of friends who don't vote. Some probably think "heck, john smith isn't gonna vote so i'm just gonna go over to his voting spot & tell them i'm him"
    I don't know of anyone that has done this but it would be absurdly easy here.
     
  3. NonSequitur Gems: 19/31
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    1.) In Australia, it's pretty easy to answer that question. You get fined for NOT voting, and it's very difficult to lose one's voting rights.

    2.) I really can't answer that question. I think that, in the end, anyone who (more than anything) wants to get rich will find a way to do it.

    Agreed. Maybe it's because I'm living in a place where I have no choice but to vote, but I cannot understand the lack of desire to participate in an election. I am more concerned by the consequential effect of voter apathy - that more active but non-representative populations can wield more influence with their votes.

    Of course, in Australia, most people are pretty much born into a voting pattern, so I can't claim that we have the answers on that one, either. At least it makes the first question easier to answer. :D
     
  4. LKD Gems: 31/31
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    I've always been amused by the Australian system of penalizing those who choose not to vote. It just sounds quite funny to me, though I can certainly see the value of it.

    Even with it, though, voter apathy can still creep in with the miracle of "spoiled ballots." Unless there isn't a secret ballot in the land Down Under, which I highly doubt.
     
  5. Ragusa

    Ragusa Eternal Halfling Paladin Veteran

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    ... as this has become the voter fraud thread ...

    'Eltitist'? As in speaking the word 'nuclear' properly? 'Ties'? As with Saddam and Al Qaeda? ... you DO remember/know that under the current administrations federal prosecutors, who refused to push voter fraud changes because they thought such charges baseless, were fired?
    That means that if there are investigations, that doesn't necessarily mean that there was malfeasance. To suggest such malfeasance on part of the opposition is exactly the point when Republicans call for such investigations. It is not that I say that D's and R's don't commit voter fraud. It's that the R's nowadays habitually push such charges for partisan gain, under Bush even through the Justice Department. It has become a standard theme and standard tool in their inventory.

    It helps them in their elections because their targets are then hobbled by having to defend themselves legally, they are forced to expend money on attorneys, they are distracted from campaigning, the money and time consumed by that is unavailable for campaigning, and they are being smeared by these investigations going public - another advantage for the next whisper smear campaign if the targets survive (heh - you wanna vote for this guy? He was investigated for voter fraud!) - and such aid for the GOP comes at the taxpayer's expense! That's why Iglesias thinks that 'A misuse of power of the Department of Justice in the service of the Republican Party' handsomely covers the issue.

    Now let me think for a second... how do I reconcile this? Ah yes! :rolling: Iglesias is irrelevant because ... it is partisan smear ... he is a disgruntled ex-employee who has an axe to grind :spin: And of course, this all happens to make sure that elections are being conducted 'in accordance with the law' :lol: Yes, this is what pressing for investigations and prosecution of baseless cases as with Iglesias is all about. It is just that they want to be super sure that everything is really, really legal :lol:

    After all that's obviously why R's do vote caging, after all - to prevent voter fraud. Allegations that it might have to do with targeting and excluding voter groups they think will vote for the opposition ... is partisan smear ... brought forth by disgruntled ex-employees with axes to grind ...
     
  6. NonSequitur Gems: 19/31
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    @ LKD - Yeah, donkey votes are almost a way of life for some people over here. Australians love their apathy when they're forced to do anything.

    Couldn't agree more - at least with the first part, anyway. That isn't to say that the Republicans or socially conservative parties are the only ones who might do this with a specific goal in mind (like, say, holding onto power).

    Of course, Heaven forbid that some liberal elitists might get upset about people getting knocked off the electoral roll for no good reason. I can't think why I'd be annoyed if someone who didn't consider me a winnable constituent struck my name off the list because I hadn't replied to a letter.
     
  7. martaug Gems: 23/31
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    Ragusa, they even used ex-cons as employess in states they knew it was illegal for them to be involved with voter registration in. THey(ACORN) has shown a consistant pattern for the decade at least of getting caught & passing it off as "just a few bad apples" & "we will clean-up our act now" which they never do.

    Still would like to know what you think about obama saying that we need to get georgia in nato as soon as possible when you have already stated that we need to stop doing things in russias' backyard to aggravate them.
     
  8. Ragusa

    Ragusa Eternal Halfling Paladin Veteran

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    If he said that I would think he is calling for counter productive policy. I do not think that any further NATO expansion is in any way desirable or has any utility.

    I said that before: There is an American bi-partisan consensus on foreign policy that has a lot to do with US sense of mission and still existing delusions of grandeur (read: global hegemony). NATO expansion is a part of that. It's just that in Bush two terms the hard liners way to the right of that consensus most of the time got their way. The result of that is apparent today: Some realist successes aside - where the US aren't bombing or threatening to bomb people, the Bush crew have made themselves pretty much irrelevant because they completely refuse interaction with international actors on other terms. It doesn't work, because the US are not in a position to do that. The US couldn't help Georgia. The US didn't negotiate with Russia over their client's fate. US politicos held speeches. It was the French who brokered the Russian pull out.

    I do not think that America will stop doing stupid things (like in their policy towards Russia) if Americans only vote for Obama. If anything, I believe there will less stupid things, less often. That is an improvement.

    I merely say that Obama, even when he is, as I think, wrong on Georgia, is still a better choice than cantankerous, impulsive John 'bomb-bomb-bomb-Iran' McCain who surrounds himself with ideologue hard liners in his foreign policy team - promising more of Bush's first term. I see Obama as smart enough to understand that (a regional great power) Russia requires an approach other than confrontation, as the neo-cons would have it. I don't see that in McCain or his advisors. Russia is not Iran. You treat Russia like Iran at your own peril. If you're taking nukes in the equation it becomes evident that the risk of escalation is ... undesirable.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2008
  9. LKD Gems: 31/31
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    Going back to NOG's original two questions, I want to address #2 in terms of the discussion of socialism, as socialism has come up.

    I am all for HELPING the less fortunate -- up to a point. The fear many right wingers like myself have is that freeloading slobs will just kick back and relax, living off the work sweat of those who have jobs. This aggravates us because we work hard and we want to be able to spend the money we earn with our labour on ourselves and our families.

    If someone encounters a situation that is beyond their control, helping those people get back on their feet is not a problem for me. It's those who CHOOSE to not make an effort to better themselves and then act like they have a right to the money I earned who make me nervous about socialism.

    To put it another way, I'm middle class and Andy is poor. Nothing is improved by making me poor too and giving 1/2 of my wages to Andy, especially if he is a lazy twerp and will squander the money he has extorted from me through the government and end up still poor. All that was accomplished there is now we have 2 poor people instead of one. Not much of a public policy, if you ask me.

    BTW, Andy is the name of someone I know personally whose family went on a holiday to Hawaii while on welfare. Not cool.
     
  10. Death Rabbit

    Death Rabbit Straight, no chaser Adored Veteran Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    This sentiment is by no means exclusive to right-wingers, believe me. I generally don't mind giving up a small amount of my income for the greater good. My discomfort comes when I feel that money is being wasted, either on programs that don't work, programs that are wasteful, or on people who don't deserve or appreciate it. While I want that amount to be as small as possible, I also see the good it can do. Where I differ with conservatives on this point is when some use the "lazy slobs don't deserve my money" position as justification to get rid of welfare altogether. I would say most recipients of aid do indeed need and appreciate it.

    So yes, HELPING the less fortunate, but not doing it all for them or making them dependent. That's generally where I'm at.

    As to the topic, I do indeed feel that voter fraud is a problem. A lot of people keep bringing up ACORN, so I think its very relevant here.

    The more I'm reading into this ACORN business the more disturbing it is to me. I think the cries of widespread conspiratorial corruption are largely overblown (you'd think at least some arrests would have been made by now), but it's no less a problem. This kind of thing happens on both sides of the political spectrum in every national election (at least the last few). Grassroots GOTV activists become overzealous and start cutting corners, flub begets flub, and so it spreads. I think for the most part that's all this is. There's little credible evidence the Obama campaign is even indirectly responsible for what's going on. It's a shame, as this only hurts the Obama campaign and damages the credibility of their wins. ACORN is poorly run by some pretty dumb and clumsy people, but I don't see a nefarious agenda here. Not yet, anyway.

    We'll have to see how this plays out, but I'm not one bit happy about it. That said, I feel the McCain camp and the anti-Obama folk are way overplaying their hand on this.
     
  11. martaug Gems: 23/31
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    DR, there have been arrests & prosecutions of ACORN members & the main group keeps promising to clean up it's act but this has been going on for more than decade. Just how long do you allow a crook to keep doing the same thing before you quit allowing him to do business?

    Just look at Lake City Indiana, last week ACORN turned in 2,000 new voter registration cards. 1,100 of them turned out to be false. 55% ! Now how can any reasonable person think that that isn't a deliberate action on their part?
     
  12. Ragusa

    Ragusa Eternal Halfling Paladin Veteran

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    martaug,
    probably you're referring to this: I was about to click away to find something interesting to read when it caught my eye that in the accusation ACORN was called a 'liberal' group. Now that is an interesting formulation. Now this suddenly and decidedly became an interesting read: The accusations were uttered by a Republican, that would for starters explain the wording.

    The article is interesting in another way. You are aware that that would perfectly fit into the scenario of GOPers politicising the 'issue' of voter fraud that I sketched here? The US attorney firing by the Bush administration resulted in an intriguing report, that you really, really ought to read (see p. 162; link opens pdf):
    Why does the GOP have a problem with ACORN? Because ACORNs activities threaten to result in greater voter turnout, which is exactly what the classic GOP tactic of voter caging strives to prevent. One can absolutely expect GOP attacks on ACORN in face of that and thus ought to take their vociferous outrage with a pound of salt, which you sadly do not. You ought to be more curious.

    You speak about prosecutions and investigations - in face of the implications of David Iglesias' testimony that appears to be a very questionable indicator. What about the verdicts? What did come out those prosecutions of ACORN members in the last decade lead? THAT is the interesting question. Do you have anything on that?

    Frankly, I do not think so and that's for a very practical reason: A relatively small number of real cases non-withstanding, voter fraud in the US is largely a myth, or rather, a GOP hoax. From what I read last it was like this: Most reported instances of alleged voter fraud turned out to be something else, usually something that did not constitute a criminal act, and even when it did, it usually wasn't about voter fraud. But considering that it is 'the best wedge-issue ever' it is made an issue through assertion and relentless repetition, and with a straight face, just as if it was real. Such staring contests are also a GOP speciality. Usually they blink last.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2008
  13. LKD Gems: 31/31
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    To a certain degree I believe what you are saying, but if ACORN is engaging in illegal activity then they should be stopped, regardless of their political affiliation. I don't believe the GOP should be vilified for asking that all people adhere to the law. I just don't buy the old line of "the evil GOP is once again trying to disenfranchise legitimate voters." If people can't provide legal documentation proving who they are, then I think it is entirely reasonable to tell them they can't vote. That's not dirty pool, it's common sense!

    This caging business, surely it cannot be that difficult for a serviceman to get his hands on forms to prevent this sort of thing? If it's being done, then it should be slapped down hard, as well. But turning in false names or otherwise engaging in another form of illegal activity is not the way to solve this sort of problem.

    I would also hazard a guess that only the scummiest of the scum engage in either sort of dishonesty.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2008
  14. The Great Snook Gems: 31/31
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    This is what ACORN is all about. The beauty of this is at the end of the article this guy decides he will vote

     
  15. martaug Gems: 23/31
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    Ok ragusa i had posted this in another thread but here it is again:

    Here is just a quick little list(from wiki)

    In Ohio in 2004, four ACORN employees were indicted by a federal grand jury for submitting false voter registration forms.[20][21]

    In January 2005 two Colorado ACORN workers were sentenced to community service for submitting false voter registrations.[22] ACORN's regional director said, "we find it abhorrent and do everything we can to prevent it from happening."[23]

    On November 1, 2006, four part-time ACORN employees were indicted in Kansas City, Missouri for voter registration fraud. Prosecutors said the indictments are part of a national investigation.[24] ACORN said in a press release that it is in part responsible in these individuals being caught, has fired them, and has cooperated and publicly supported efforts to look into the validity of the allegations.[25]

    ACORN was investigated in 2006 for submitting false voter registrations in St. Louis, Missouri. 1,492 fraudulent voter registrations were identified.[26][27]

    In 2007, five Washington state ACORN workers were sentenced to jail time.[28]
    ACORN agreed to pay King County $25 000 for its investigative costs and acknowledged that the national organization could be subject to criminal prosecution if fraud occurs again. According to King County Prosecuting Attorney Dan Satterberg, the misconduct was done "as an easy way to get paid [by ACORN], not as an attempt to influence the outcome of elections."[29][30]

    In 2008, the Michigan Secretary of State office told the Detroit Free Press that ACORN had been submitting a sizeable number of duplicate and fraudulent applications to vote.[31]

    In 2008, the Las Vegas ACORN Office was raided due to voter fraud complaints.

    Here is a nice little primer on them http://www.consumersrightsleague.org... Scandal.pdf

    Lake City Indiana just discovered that 1100 of 2000 voter registration from acorn last week were fraudulant.

    There are investigations against them in 10 seperate states, how long does a pattern have to be before the dems actually admit it?

    PS Meantime, completely ignored by the mainstream commentariat and clean-election crusaders, the Obama campaign admitted failing to report $800,000 in campaign payments to ACORN. They were disguised as payments to a front group called "Citizen Services Inc." for "advance work."

    Notice the bold section, just last week 55% of ALL the registration forms that ACORN filed in lake city were fraudulent.
    Now how can any honest person not see that this is a deliberate pattern?

    Trying to say this is just some republican whining is self delusion.
    Ohio which has been losing population suddenly has 600,000 new voters?!? Puhlease.:rolleyes:
     
    LKD likes this.
  16. Gnarfflinger

    Gnarfflinger Wiseguy in Training

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    In Canada, a conviction for electoral fraud permanently costs you the right to vote. If that was in place in the US, then you would see the end of ACORN...
     
  17. martaug Gems: 23/31
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    H#!! gnarff, we can't even get voter ID laws passed as the ACLU & other liberal groups organise protests & launch lawsuits saying it violates the civil rights of poor people / minority groups.

    Now how in the crap can it be a violation to try to make sure those who are voting are actual supposed to be able to vote?
     
  18. Gnarfflinger

    Gnarfflinger Wiseguy in Training

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    Yes, but they are allowed ONE vote. If they vote twice in the same election then they would lose that right under Canadian law. The guy that registered 72 times would be stripped of that right, as well as anyone that knowingly signed him up to vote extra times. It's about punishing the guilty, not denying innocent citizens the vote. It's a hard line on electoral fraud.
     
  19. Ragusa

    Ragusa Eternal Halfling Paladin Veteran

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    Why are R's interested in voter suppression, vote caging? Ask Paul Weyrich:


    I read out of that ... hostility towards the democratic process. They should speak like that more publicly and more often. That aside, one has to concede, once again, that the R's are geniuses at PR. It starts and ends with phrasing. By phrasing things skilfully one can control the debate.

    The R's talk about 'voter fraud' and then point to ACORN. Now what is voter fraud? Is it a specific act? Several specific acts? What about vote caging, voter suppression? I think it is an amorphous term, and intentionally so. And how can one not be concerned about something that is called 'voter fraud' - after all it's, well, fraud, sort of. Denying the truthfulness of the assertion of voter fraud sounds like relativism towards fraud. The wording already puts the opposition at the defensive. That is to say that by simply accepting the R phraseology (no doubt carefully market tested) the R's win a point. The D's should not allow that.

    That said, I do think that voter fraud occurs in the US, but not in the way R's allege - that part is indeed a hoax. I just think right now the most skilled and unscrupulous perpetrators in this regard are the R's themselves. Underlying the GOP charges is the allegation that Democratic political operatives or sympathetic political organizations like ACORN have filed fake voter registrations or encouraged supporters to vote more than once to win elections. These claims have been investigated by the U.S. Election Assistance Commission and academics and found to be without merit. Never mind. The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence, and that was good enough to invade Iraq.

    In Voter Outreach of America the GOP appears to have a counterpart for ACORN. Or think of funny stunts like this. And with a thoroughly politicised Civil Rights section at the Justice Department and sympathetic US attorneys (reverse conclusion from the Iglesias firing - martaug, think again, critically, about those prosecutions you refer to), election officials and cooperative governors (hey bro!) they have means that are in an entirely different league in comparison to ACORN. With this we speak of serious abuse of power issues. But then, one is to believe that those voter purges are perfectly legal and conducted without fault (Aargh, those darn clerical errors! :holy: )

    With the Bush crew's track record, I take that with a ton of salt. To me the GOP stance is profoundly cynical: Even if their efforts don't succeed in a won election, it creates doubt and stalls the process and gives opportunity to stage dramatic GOP-for-the-rule-of-law showdowns, oh yes, and distract from the things they do themselves, and even provide themselves with a pre-emptive defence if it comes out: Yes, we did this, and we are grief stricken about it :holy: but the D's did it too - look at ACORN! Win-win-win.

    As for what the R's have been up to all those years, let's again consult Paul Weyrich:
    Related articles: The Republican War on Voting. Or this report. Interesting stuff.

    PS: Personally, I think the US afford themselves the unaffordable luxury to have an anachronistic, ridiculously incoherent and ineffective election system that is easily exploited - and decidedly not a model for the world to emulate.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 19, 2015
  20. martaug Gems: 23/31
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    Ragusa you just flat out lied. Acorn members have been convicted of voter fraud & as i pointed out just this week the national news agencies(you know like cnn) have reported that 1,100 of 2,000 voter registration cards turned in by acorn in lake city indiana this week WERE FALSIFIED.
    You are proving mortons demon, my friend.

    Jesus F'n Christ, if i showed you a video of them confessing you would still deny it. Take off the republican hating glasses or just tell me you aren't & i'll put you on the ignore list with DR.

    Fine here's more for you :

    State Year Details
    AR 1998 A contractor with ACORN-affiliated Project Vote was arrested for falsifying about 400 voter registration cards.

    CO 2004 An ACORN employee admitted to forging signatures and registering three of her friends to vote 40 times.
    2005 Two ex-ACORN employees were convicted in Denver of perjury for submitting false voter registrations.

    FL 2004 A Florida Department of Law Enforcement spokesman said ACORN was “singled out” among suspected voter registration groups for a 2004 wage initiative because it was “the common thread” in the agency’s fraud investigations.

    MI 2004 The Detroit Free Press reported that “overzealous or unscrupulous campaign workers in several Michigan counties are under investigation for voter-registration fraud, suspected of attempting to register nonexistent people or forging applications for already-registered voters.” ACORN-affiliate Project Vote was one of two groups suspected of turning in the documents.

    MO 2007 Four ACORN employees were indicted in Kansas City for charges including identity theft and filing false registrations during the 2006 election.

    2006 Eight ACORN employees in St. Louis were indicted on federal election fraud charges. Each of the eight faces up to five years in prison for forging signatures and submitting false information.

    2003 Of 5,379 voter registration cards ACORN submitted in St. Louis, only 2,013 of those appeared to be valid. At least 1,000 are believed to be attempts to register voters illegally.

    NC 2004 North Carolina officials investigated ACORN for submitting fake voter registration cards.
    NM 2005 Four ACORN employees submitted as many as 3,000 potentially fraudulent signatures on the group’s Albuquerque ballot initiative. A local sheriff added: “It’s safe to say the forgery was widespread.”

    2004 An ACORN employee registered a 13-year-old boy to vote. Citing this and other examples, New Mexico State Representative Joe Thompson stated that ACORN was “manufacturing voters” throughout New Mexico.

    OH 2007 A man in Reynoldsburg was indicted on two felony counts of illegal voting and false registration, after being registered by ACORN to vote in two separate counties.

    2004 A grand jury indicted a Columbus ACORN worker for submitting a false signature and false voter registration form. In Franklin County, two ACORN workers submitted what the director of the board of election supervisors called “blatantly false” forms. In Cuyahoga County, ACORN and its affiliate Project Vote submitted registration cards that had the highest rate of errors for any voter registration group.

    MN 2004 During a traffic stop, police found more than 300 voter registration cards in the trunk of a former ACORN employee, who had violated a legal requirements that registration cards be submitted to the Secretary of State within 10 days of being filled out and signed.

    PA 2008 An ACORN employee in West Reading, PA, was sentenced to up to 23 months in prison for identity theft and tampering with records. A second ACORN worker pleaded not guilty to the same charges and is free on $10,000 bail.

    2004 Reading’s Director of Elections received calls from numerous individuals complaining that ACORN employees deliberately put inaccurate information on their voter registration forms. The Berks County director of elections said voter fraud was “absolutely out of hand,” and added: “Not only do we have unintentional duplication of voter registration but we have blatant duplicate voter registrations.” The Berks County deputy director of elections added that ACORN was under investigation by the Department of Justice.

    TX 2004 ACORN turned in the voter registration form of David Young, who told reporters “The signature is not my signature. It’s not even close.” His social security number and date of birth were also incorrect.

    VA 2005 In 2005, the Virginia State Board of Elections admonished Project Vote and ACORN for turning in a significant number of faulty voter registrations. An audit revealed that 83% of sampled registrations that were rejected for carrying false or questionable information were submitted by Project Vote. Many of these registrations carried social security numbers that exist for other people, listed non-existent or commercial addresses, or were for convicted felons in violation of state and federal election law.

    In a letter to ACORN, the State Board of Elections reported that 56% of the voter registration applications ACORN turned in were ineligible. Further, a full 35% were not submitted in a timely manner, as required by law.
    The State Board of Elections also commented on what appeared to be evidence of intentional voter fraud.
    "Additionally,” they wrote, “information appears to have been altered on some applications where information given by the applicant in one color ink has been scratched through and re-entered in another color ink. Any alteration of a voter registration application is a Class 5 Felony in accordance with § 24.2-1009 of the Code of Virginia."

    WA 2007 Three ACORN employees pleaded guilty, and four more were charged, in the worst case of voter registration fraud in Washington state history. More than 2,000 fraudulent voter registration cards were submitted by the group during a voter registration drive.
    (more details on this) Last year five Acorn employees were sent to prison in Washington State after they went into the Seattle public library and used records to create 1,800 fake registration documents.

    WI 2004 The district attorney’s office investigated seven voter registration applications Project Vote employees filed in the names of people who said the group never contacted them. Former Project Vote employee Robert Marquise Blakely told the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel that he had not met with any of the people whose voter registration applications he signed, “an apparent violation of state law,” according to the paper.

    http://www.rottenacorn.com/activityMap.html

    http://current.com/topics/87095461_voter_fraud

    http://www.missouricri.org/pr_04_07_08.html

    http://noquarterusa.net/blog/2008/07/05/obamas-acorn/

    http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1096780/acorn_voter_registration_fraud.html

    Is that enough to get you to pull your head out of the sand or are you going to go with the standard "It's all just an evil republican plot"
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2008
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