Please tell me there are more Atheists out there...

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Ok, you're ovbiously seeing something in my earlier posts that I did not intend. I just wanted to understand his position and he got pissed. Ok, I lost patience, everyone does from time to time, but that doesn't mean I completely gave up on him, I just needed to cool down a bit.

 

I will. I'm not sure what the United States constitution says, it's possible that it states the ten commandments to be the base of their legal system but I highly doubt it. While it has some merit claiming that the ten commandments have affected the western legal system it's unfair to say that it's the foundation. It's no more a foundation than the roman law which has allways been the base of western legistlation and there as still plenty of noticable tendencies of roman law in the modern legal systems, and it's not like the roman law was based on the ten commandments.

Personally I am happy to see the legistlation developing further away from religious influence. I'm more than happy to be rid of laws such as the one against blasphemy which only exist to restrict the freedoms of citizen and enforce a certain moral or religious code which many might not share.

Indeed. Legally it's called a civil union not a marriage, whereas marriage is marriage. The thing is that the pair living in a civil union talk and will talk about themselves as a married couple, and they will likely be considered as married couple by most people, in fact unless it was a homosexual couple there is a large likelyhood everyone will allways see them as a married couple, and there are protestant churches for homosexuals too these days, I can't see what right anyone has to deny them from granting marriages to a homosexual couples.

 

For me, I need to see it to believe it. Hearing it from another person leaves me doubtful. Unless I see it for myself, things are still skeptical for me. I am not saying that you are wrong, because perhaps you did feel God's love, but until I see God, or absolute proof (as in, not just someone saying that _____ is God's work)that he is around, I am not going to believe it. And I most certaintly am not calling you a liar, if you get that impression.

But the people who make commercials aren't all atheists, are they? I'll bet most are some sort of Christian (most powerful positions are taken by Christians in America. If you look at CEOs and Presidents and Politicians, most of them are white christians. And by christians, I do not mean catholic, I mean all relgions under Christianity) and not atheist. So these 'atheistic' commercials are not a product of atheist propoganda, but perhaps work of people from your own religion. Of course, they could just be less faithful than you, or somesuch.

There is plenty of proof of evolution. Try:
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CA/CA202.html
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Evolution+proof

Now, these were provided by doing a quick google search, but they seem pretty good to me. And yes, there are links that say evolution is , but if you look at it, their only proof is "The Word of God" based on a book that is not guaranteed to be correct.

This link, for instance, is not even close to providing proof in a civil way. Take a look for yourself, and give your own judgement. Now, I know this isn't the only link, but it was the first one I found, and I just want to point it out:
http://www.remnantofgod.org/creation.htm

They are trying to keep religion out of politics, which is something that we (america) has always tried to do. I guess (not exactly sure, just my guess) that people try to get religious justices out of senate because they are not likely to provide an unbiased ruling. Ex: In a case in which the defendant has been accused of something that goes against a religion (such as adultery, fornication, thievery, whatever), they are more likely to be biased towards condemning them, whereas an atheist might not be. Now, this is just my opinion on the matter, so don't go around telling me what I just said was stupid. Now, tell me if I don't make sense or what I say is implausible, but don't bash.

Bravo, good sir. This is something I have noticed as well, and is perfectly stated in your words. Although, I live in Massachusetts, so it is not as bad as in other places, but still, its true.

Luckily it hasn't been done yet. I stated at the beginning of this whole thing that I believe I don't go anywhere except in the ground to rot when I die, and thankfully, no one has told me I am wrong. Some people have offered other opinions, such as someone who has done astral projection (still something i feel doesn't prove life-after-death). Even if astral projection worked, and you do leave your body, how do we know this happens when we die. Give me video footage, or show me it in person, and I'll believe it.


Wow, that is my longest post ever.

 

@NOG: And just where did you saw agression, anger and whatever you saw in my last post? I just wrapped everything up by saying I was tired of arguing. How you interpreted that post is up to you. But since I wrote that post, I know better than anyone else that there was no agression, anger or anything else in that post. Just exasperation.

On a side note, you don't have to respect me, but since you asked about my motives, then I shall express them.

Atheists are nothing new, but the number of godless people is rising with every passing day. Just so you know, I do not have a positive outlook on religion, so it comes out as natural that I will encourage godless people to proudly stand up.

Religion is changing, and losing it's place in the world. There will always be religious people in the world, true, I am just part of the godless revolution, and I am proud to be. Simple as that.

[ October 26, 2005, 01:52: Message edited by: Disciple of The Watch ]

 

Morgoroth: I'm not familiar with the laws of ancient Rome. In western world countries it's probably pretty common to assume the role of the Bible in law making more significant than it perhaps was.

My point was that it's not relevant where the laws originate from, as long as they are good, sense-making laws. A law against blasphemy or homosexuality does not make sense to me. A law against murder does. What a religious text says or doesn't say is not a valid argument for either approving or disapproving of a law. It's all about the law itself.

A law against blasphemy or one that demands people to participate in religious rituals places one view of life into a better status than others, and is hence unjust. Such laws exist in various places around the world. As far as I know there aren't any laws to punish religious people for telling me I'll go to hell for not believing what they do, which is just as offensive to me as "blasphemy" is to them.

I see a sign of unequality before the law here.

 

Ah, you two people are truly beautiful. Great stuff, i say, except for one thing about your post, susipaisti:
You said that if a law 'places one view of life into a better status than others,' it is unjust. But previously you said that a law against murder is good. What about the people who think that killing whoever they want is right?

Now, I completely agree with you, I am just saying that your argument can be taken apart with a little bit of effort. Although, most arguments can... nevermind, I guess, just calling your attention to it. I still agree with you, though.

And DotW, while I agree with you, calling Atheism a "raging fever" doesn't give us a good name. It implies death of millions.

And if I seem like I am being counter-productive, I am sorry, but those things just jumped out at me when I read your posts. However, I still agree with both of you and what you said.

 

Yes, raging fever wasn't the best choice of terms, but I basically wanted to say that the number of atheists is rising with every passing year. Not so long ago, being an atheist was badly seen, but look at it today: it's now possible to get un-baptized. Atheism is a quiet revolution.

 

Possible to get un-baptized? Cool, maybe I should do that (i was baptized catholic, even though I don't believe in it. Not like I had a choice as a baby).

But yes, it is becoming a revolution.

 

Yes, it's possible to get un-baptized, however you lose the right to be buried in a christian graveyard. No big deal for me, since I intend to get incinerated. Being maggot food isn't a very attractive idea to me.

I don't know about other countries, but in Canada, it's totally possible to get un-baptized. Just a few papers to fill.

 

I would like to be burned on a pyre, not in an oven, but I think it's illegal nowadays. Still not getting buried, though.

 

I think that part of the deluge you feel that you experience is that we have textbooks to quote from. We can more readily state our point because we have it at the ready, and that's like a shell ing the chamber to use a firefight analogy. As for "the start of Religion" that sometimes happens. Abraham, in the Old Testament lived in a wicked city, and cued in that something wasn't right. The Lord then taught him the right way to live, and thus things continue. Abraham became the founding father of Ancient Israel IIRC (His Grandson Jacob became known as Israel, and the nation of his decendents took that name for their civilization).

Another option is to try to live as best you can. We solidify ourselves in our view of what's right and what's not, and go from there. For those that do not believe, then it's irrelevent what we do here. I'm wagering my eternal fate on what i believe to be the right path, and seek to encourage all around me to join me.

The problem is, according to my faith, that faith requires you to believe this without hard evidence. The witness of the truth of your faith is not given until after the test of your faith.

First of, Church and State will never be truly seperated as long as the Religious have the right to vote. Second, you can't bar someone from the bench because he is religious, because the Constitution forbids it.

 

well hey, iv just read through most of this thread I have no specific replies but i think ill just give my views on this area

Im a student in the uk studying physics and i am also a christian of protestant puersuasion. To be honest I dont much bout Catholic denomination so i abstain from having any views based on media and the general publics view.

Before i became a christian 2 years ago I always believed there was somethign more to life wether it be a deity or not but i couldnt believe this universe being a random creation and each day as i learn more of my physics i believe that more and more. Just, now, I believe it was God who created it all.

Which brings me onto creation; I dont have a definate view on this yet, i dont understand as i wasnt there but one thing to think about is how long is one day to God and at the beginning of creation God was yet to create day and night so a day didnt exist. There are other times in the bible where time is from Gods perspective rather than ours.
Also my non christian astrophysics lecturer always went on bout how there is only 3 bits of eveidence for big bang and how its only 1 THEORY (sorry but i see so many people that arent scientists who think it fact) and always said be skeptical of everything for all we know another revolution of science is happening now.

I belive in microevolution but not macro evolution and have never been abler to believ molecules coming together by randomness in soup and many scientists who are not christian are very skeptical abotu macro evolution and the primordial soup idea. Many scientists as they learn bout the universe gain a faith of sumsort.

Also I would say i dislike the actions of fundelmentalists and those forceful chriostian conversionists, I believe that people should discover christianity is by the way us christians live and they see that and they choose to ask questions i dont believ in going out and saying your wrong or even saying im right.

i agree that so many religious organisations (church etc.) have screwed up and got the wrong idea it took the christian romans only a few hundred years to corrupt christianity, and even today i see churches being legalistic(which is sed to be wrong in bible) and ritualistic in the ways they do service. I go to churches where all its about is me spending time with my God and worshipping in ways i wish to irrelevent of the person next to me and I can say non christians and some christians will never understand the feeling of havin God in there life till they have that amazin experience.

I have a lecture on thermaldynamics to go to so ill stop typing.
I am sorry if i have accidently caused offence or sed anything that is wrong these are only MY views for my life and I will respect any rational complaints comments etc.

***Also sorry to those who tried to read the poor qaulity unedited version of my post, my posts are normally fine but I was in a serious rush so not to be late for my lecture***

[ October 26, 2005, 14:24: Message edited by: jazzmaster ]

 

I ought to shake my finger at you now, but I can't find the smilie...

Obviously killing someone violates their rights and freedom in such a manner that "blasphemy" and somesuch can't compare to. Allowing "blasphemy" makes sense, 'cos the only effect it causes is offense among a certain group. Allowing murder would mean there'd soon be nobody left to take offense. Not allowing it protects *everyone* (including the would-be murderers), not just a selected segment that frowns on murder based on a religious text, and protects them from something far more severe than just offense.

It's good you brought it up, so I could clarify before someone who likes to twist people's words around could pitch in (it has happened before). Thanks.

As for what to do with one's body upon death...I'm toying with the idea of donating mine to medical science.

Pardon me for saying so, but here we get back on how to know which of the gazillion religions in the world is supposed to be right. You seem to feel a certainty about yours - great. But a lot of people just breed their children into the particular faith they suscribe to (which seems reasonable, I guess), and many of the children just grown into it without ever thinking of or even hearing about the alternatives (which doesn't sound reasonable to me).

 

Here, I'll do it for you Susipaisti.

@Saber:


@Gnarf:

Yep, that's right on the antagonism scale. I believe the exact point on the scale is marked as: "I'm right, they're wrong, and everyone needs to know it."

 

Thank you for clarifying (I didn't really need it, but I wanted you to clarify for other people). Now it will be very difficult for people to twist your words, as you said some people will.

EDIT: And I wasn't trying to do this to go against you, or to 'twist your words', I was just trying to help you. Hopefully you did not take offense.


And I just realized that perhaps I could donate my body to science. I do like all tht scientific stuff anyways. Or, I could have someone replace all my blood with gasoline, and then have my friends take flamethrowers to me... now that's the way to be cremated!

 

Wow, and I haven't even been gone that long. Ok, here goes.
Saber:
There are many people out there who claim, when asked to be christian, and some of them even go to church, but that doen to mean that they actually represent, support, or provide christian ideals and examples. There are many people in the porn industry who claim to be christian. How does that work?
There are 2 or 3 other boards talking about evolution, so I won't get into it here, but the end result of each of them was that evolution is a theory that works pretty well, but is not absolute fact. There are (a few) other theories that work just as well.
DoTW:
Well, it was mainly the profanity and complete refusal to answer me, but rather to accuse me, or others, of attacking you. I'm glad to see you are feeling more reasonable now, and thanks for answering. That does make sense, even if I don't agree with it.

As for the whole death thing, I want to be burried in a pine-wood box with a bunch of apple seeds and fertilizer, but that too is illegal. I guess I'l probably be cremated and burried in a pine-wood vase thingy, best I can do, but it'ld really be a shame to lock up my body, which I won't need anymore, where no one and nothing can use it.

 

Saber, the only "jab" in my post was the finger wagging thing. I wasn't being sarcastic with the rest, I understood your point and took no offense. So not to worry.

I missed the unedited version...it must've been quite a sight. (I don't use those thingies normally, but here they just fit too well.)

Don't take offense now, judging by your points and the polite way you presented them you seem like a reasonable type that doesn't shove things in people's faces.

NOG: I'm not quite convinced those other theories work just as well. Hey...if the evolution threads aren't completely buried yet, I might invite myself in.

Christian porn stars? Now that *is* a strange concept.

There's something I'd like to hear your views on (everybody's), so double-take, I'll loosely quote myself:

 

Yeah, Many Christians don't follow the rules. Please do not judge Christianity by those that don't follow the teachings.

AS for which one is right, Again, it's a matter of faith. That becomes a personal conviction. Just as Susipaisti pointed out, we can't sit back worrying that we'll offend someone, we can't waste our lives too afraid to live because we don't want to live wrong. WE must live by our faith (and for those that don't believe, it's faith that they are right).

According to Christian doctrine, parents are charged with teaching Children the words of God. Thus, parents see to it that their children are taught according to their religion. I would imagine that most parents do something of the sort with their own children. It's not until they go out into the world (or cyberspace) that these alternatives are thrown about...

 

I just don't think it's fair for the children in question. I dare say that a vast majority of the believers of any given religion only believe in it, 'cos they've been bred into it. Because the religion has been taught to them so early that they had no way of questioning it. I don't see that kind of faith as genuine, because they haven't made the choice themselves.

 

@Susipaisti: We're raising our sons within the religious traditions of Judaism for one main reason: We want them to have a solid foundation of education and belief in *something* so that when they leave the nest they're not ripe for plucking by the first cult that comes knocking on the dorm-room door. Since we're responsible for this first teaching and religious practice, we chose Judaism. It's the religion that comes closest to accomodating - if not necessarily embracing - our fundamentally scientific, rationalist, humanist approach to life.

If the boys decide later that a different set of religious beliefs and practices - including no practice - suits them better, so be it. But until they're intellectually and emotionally ready to make such a decision, Mama's in charge.

Must faith be questioned to be genuine? Can't someone be so comfortable with the traditions of their youth as to not need to look into other paths?