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Pissed at Propaganda

Discussion in 'Alley of Dangerous Angles' started by Dice, Aug 27, 2020.

  1. Dice

    Dice ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran

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    Conspiracy theorists have come out of woodwork like crazy lately and they are sharing dangerous propaganda like the no-mask movement, and dangerous treatments for covid-19. Part of the reason they're coming out of the woodwork is because of encouragement and acceptance by Trump. Tied in with a conspiracy theory that says Trump is a genius, his political alliances have been effectively able to manipulate these far-right zealots.

    Internet and social media has become a platform to easily spread Propaganda and now heavy censorship has become necessary.
     
  2. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Yikes.

    Masks are not some kind of panacea. Studies vary about how effective they are, but all are fairly low, though in most cases it's better than nothing. N95 masks with the exhalation valves are great at protecting the wearer when fitted properly, but do nothing to protect others (which is what most people are talking about when talking about how bad it is not to wear a mask). The fleece gaiters that a lot of people wear actually produced more droplets when the wearers exhaled.

    So a decision not to wear a mask is not dangerous. If you are worried about a bare face, well, then stay a safe distance from them.

    I don't agree with the people who refuse to wear a mask inside a place where the owner mandates it. If you don't like it, don't go in.

    I'm not aware of dangerous treatments Trump is accepting or encouraging. But regardless, if you listen to some buffoon on the internets for your health advice you have only yourself to blame for any negative consequences.

    That doesn't sound like a conspiracy theory whether Trump is a genius or not.

    Whoa, whoa, whoa! Censorship is never necessary. Counter misinformation with correct information.
     
    damedog and StSofiaWiseguy like this.
  3. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    We've got plenty of those kooks here too. But then again, there are plenty of people around who believe that the Earth is flat and vaccines cause autism, so that's not really surprising. Every time I open Facebook and start reading comments on anything topical, there'll be plenty of comments from those types of idiots who are convinced that covid-19 doesn't exist and that they're the clever ones whereas everyone else has been fooled by the global conspiracy. :rolleyes:

    Masks make a big difference, I'm not sure what studies you're referring to, but here in Europe (and you'll likely admit that in most places we're handling covid-19 much better than the US), we're being made aware of this often:

    [​IMG]

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    Forbes article some of the images above are from, the others have been released by various ministries of health and medical institutions. A couple relevant quotes from the article:

    I have also not heard of a single doctor anywhere in Europe claiming that more droplets could pass through any kind of face covering than without it. The key to wearing non-N95 masks is that everyone has to do it for it to be effective, however, otherwise you can only protect yourself with a N95 or equivalent. There's a ridiculous amount of misinformation and "facts" posted about the usage of masks online by anti-maskers, however, so you're far more likely to have encountered "promo material" about the "dangers" of wearing masks by anti-maskers than solid advice from medical professionals.

    To conclude, everyone, please wear a mask and don't look for excuses not to. Another hidden function that the masks provide is heightened awareness of the need for social distancing, which we often forget otherwise and that further limits our chances of infection. Wearing a mask during the epidemic protects yourself as well as those around you.
     
    Dice likes this.
  4. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Sorry, I wasn't very clear. Medical grade masks worn properly are most effective, but the type of mask and how they are used and washed makes a big difference. I don't know how it is in Europe, but here in the United States due to the early dearth of disposable medical masks a whole mask economy has emerged selling all kinds of cloth masks that have disclaimers saying something to the effect that they were not made to prevent disease. And these are the things many if not most people are wearing here in the United States based on the pictures I see around the country.

    Here is the study showing that fleece neck gaiters produce 110% of the droplets wearing nothing produces (along with the ratings of many other types of masks). Basically, the fleece breaks up the larger droplets that go through it into multiple smaller ones.

    Here is a study about how cloth masks are less effective.
     
  5. Dice

    Dice ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran

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    So I you weren't aware of Trump advocating the taking of hydroxychloroquine as treatment for Covid-19? The conspiracy theorists are eating this shit up btw.

    Here's your buffoon for you. Hint- it's Trump talking about how he takes hydroxychloroquine so he won't get t coronavirus.



    HEALTH AND SCIENCE
    Trump says he takes hydroxychloroquine to prevent coronavirus infection even though it’s an unproven treatment

    https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/18/tru...roquine-to-prevent-coronavirus-infection.html
     
  6. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    So what if he has used an "unproven" treatment? Hydroxychloroquine is not dangerous; it has been in use and safe for 60 years. Do you think Trump self-prescribed hydroxychloroquine? Of course not, his doctor prescribed it. There are thousands of doctors that have treated many thousands of patients both prophylactically and early in the COVID-19 progression with great success.
     
  7. Dice

    Dice ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran

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    And here is your buffoon suggesting you inject bleach.
     
  8. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    *Sigh* Where did he suggest you inject bleach? I think you are deafened by your dislike for Trump that you hear things that are not said. He was talking about research into using ultraviolet light to kill the coronavirus, including some way to get it inside the body. And then he mentioned the "disinfectant" and asked the question "is there a way we could do something like that...by injection...inside...or...?" And then commented "...it would be interesting to check that. So you're going to have to use medical doctors, but it sounds interesting..."

    So, again, not suggesting anyone try it on their own, but seemingly asking about research and stipulating medical doctors would be doing it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2020
    damedog likes this.
  9. Dice

    Dice ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran

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    *Sigh* back at you BTA.
    So why did he later explain it as he was just being sarcastic? He specifically said, “I was asking a question sarcastically to reporters like you just to see what would happen,” . If what he said is true then he doesn't have a clue about how dangerous it is to spout made-up medical information to a public that is already panicked and confused about a pandemic.
     
  10. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    Most people here wear washable multilayer cloth masks sown to the specifications recommended by the health ministry and/or disposable 3-layer surgical masks. None of these are anywhere near grade FFP2/N95, of course. The only thing that they work as is first level of protection against spreading large amounts of potentially infected droplets around. But as long as everyone wears them, at least in public places, they are effective in curbing the spread of the virus. I assume the US disclaimers are there so that people couldn't sue the manufacturers for contracting and/or spreading covid-19 wearing them. The medical grades of the masks are well known and such masks certainly don't offer much protection when only the healthy person wears them; they are primarily a means to stopping the infected people from spreading it further.

    Interesting regarding the neck fleece masks; very few people here use them. Bandanas are somewhat in use only by various young(er) protesters as well.

    Regarding your second link, less effective in what sense, compared to N95s? That goes without saying. But from the abstract:

    Emphasis mine, essentially the same as I was saying above.
     
  11. dmc

    dmc Speak softly and carry a big briefcase Staff Member Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    My wife has made literally hundreds of cotton-cloth masks. They are a fine first line of defense for us and others. The point is that they limit the droplets WE release. If everyone were to wear a similar mask, it would be highly beneficial. The fake fabrics are a problem and should not be used because, as BTA has noted, they actually make things worse.

    However, the idea that some masks are not as effective as others and therefore some people have decided that means that they don't need a mask at all is not only stupid, it's dangerous. If everyone just wore a cloth mask (i.e., if the federal government had made consistent and scientific messaging from day 1), then there is no doubt that our dead would be less than 180,000 and our curve would look more like Europe than Brazil. But there are tons of people who assert their rights to the exclusion of their responsibilities to others and, IMO, are just flat out morons.

    My brother in law is one of them. That's why he is not invited to anything in my family and I have not seen him in person in 6 months.

    This is not a partisan issue. It is science coupled with respecting the rights of others, not just yourself.
     
    Dice and Taluntain like this.
  12. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    I have no idea as I have no context since it was not in the video you presented. But again, I don't see how it matters since he most certainly did not suggest anyone do anything without consulting a doctor.

    I don't disagree (assuming they are effective masks :) ); I said masks are not a panacea. The study of the Roosevelt showed that infection rates for mask wearers was still 55.8%. Not all that effective. Better than nothing certainly (with infection rates of 80.8%).

    I a bit torn on the issue because of the added complexities due to the wide range in infection fatality rates by age group and it's not a particularly deadly virus. Humans have been plagued by disease since there were Humans. If you're under 49, you're not likely to die from COVID-19 if you catch it (5-9, 99.9984% live; 10-19, 99.99968% live; 20-49, 99.9908% live). Even 50-64 year olds do not have a high IFR (99.86% live). It is the people older than 65 that are most vulnerable (94.4% live), so it seems reasonable to me to have those vulnerable groups protect themselves (or be protected) and let the virus burn through the rest of the population (not that I'm necessarily a proponent of that). The original plan was to "flatten the curve" just so the hospitals didn't get overwhelmed; we are far from that now with widespread consequences to people's lives and livelihoods.

    The flu as I understand it has a higher IFR for age groups under 49 even with the vaccines, yet nobody thought it was a good idea for everybody to wear masks for the flu; it was just a natural cause of death that had to be accepted every year. So, I'm torn about the response to COVID-19 vs. all previous diseases and I don't think I would call people morons because they choose not to wear a mask. I agree it's not a whole lot to ask for people to wear a mask, but is that the best strategy? The less people that catch it and recover from it, the more likely you'll have another outbreak. I don't know... it's not my field of expertise :)
     
  13. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    I get what you're trying to say, but what do you think is the percentage of people in the US, including older adults who are high-risk simply due to their age, who could, in the most optimistic scenario where covid-19 does not leave them with lasting consequences, survive infection unaffected due to not having any of the pre-existing medical conditions such a high blood pressure, diabetes, cancer, asthma, obesity, smoking addiction etc.?

    I've seen a number of interviews with covid-19 survivors here who were under 40 but had to go through weeks, some even months of hospital treatment before they recovered enough that they could return home. How many people in the US have medical insurance that would cover hospital treatment like that without pushing them into life-long debt that they could never repay? Would treatment even be available to them at all?

    Anti-maskers here are protesting alongside anti-5Gers, anti-vaxxers and flath-Earthers, usually for more or less the same reasons, so they're happy to all join the same protests. And I'm not trying to be insulting here at all, simply stating my observations.

    Masks are far from perfect, I agree, but they're the best that we've got so far. Wearing them is really such a small price to pay for any benefit that they provide that from a rational standpoint I simply can't understand any kind of opposition to them.
     
  14. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    I tend to agree that those who are anti-mask wearing are the fringe tinfoil hat kind of people, especially those who refuse to wear one in stores that mandate it and get pissed and violent when the staff asks them to either wear a mask or leave. I cringe at these stories of solo people being confronted in a store because again I'm not sure what's best: Confronting the person just makes it worse because now they're yelling at the top of their lungs and throwing a fit. It would probably have been better to let them get their stuff and go without them opening their mouth :)

    Unfortunately mask wearing in the United States has like so many other things become some kind of political statement.
     
  15. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    Well, that's hardly surprising given Trump's own opposition to wearing them. People who can't or aren't willing to think for themselves subscribe to the sentiment of their (political) leaders. I wonder what would happen if Trump got infected and died from covid-19?
     
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  16. Dice

    Dice ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran

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    Well worded and exactly what I'm referring to. Almost all of these people also support Trump because he encourages this kind of thought. Since they've now got Trump backing them, they have become much more efficient at spreading their propaganda. Very useful idiots.
     
  17. Sorvo

    Sorvo Where's the nearest pub? Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Veteran

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    I'm all about wearing one in a store for a few minutes but try wearing one for 8 hours around people you already know don't have it! I take that fucking thing off every chance I get :beer:
     
  18. Dice

    Dice ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran

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    I hate wearing masks too, but I wear them anyway unless I'm around a very small select group of people. I don't think there's a way of knowing 100% that a person doesn't have the virus unless they have been isolating and have had a test several days prior.
     
  19. Sorvo

    Sorvo Where's the nearest pub? Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Veteran

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    Well I work at a factory of about 100 people and no one had it yet! The way I see it is I'm only putting myself at risk, I go to work and I come home. This is my life :(
     
  20. Dice

    Dice ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran

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    Well that's an interesting statement coming from a moderator.

    So if someone here made a degrading sexual slur at me, just because I hadn't been paying attention to them, you think I should leave that up there for everyone to see and then counter the misinformation with correct information? #1 It's degrading. #2 It would tell the person who said the slur that it's ok to say that kind of thing. #3 The person who said it in the first place would be getting the attention they were looking for.

    Don't you think it would be wiser just to censor that wrong and damaging statement, in the first place?
     
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