Opinion of party - please

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I do believe that you can't backstab when you're dual wielding. Maybe that was the problem.

As for creating your own characters: go for it. If you want REAL power, that's the only way to get it. I myself prefer NPC's. What good is power to me if there is no soul in party. Besides, I find that game is beatable with just about any party of NPC's you put together, as long as you have at least two warriors and a mage. What's on top of that, is only bonus, but I always have six party members for maximum interaction.

 

I agree its nice to have npcs, it helps create... depth or something.

when you play with player created characters, you have more of a sense that these are in fact deadly weapons designed for the sole purpose of annihilating opponents. I mean, a fighter with an intelligence of 3 wouldnt know the sharp end of a sword from the blunt end.

But having played the game a lot, I tend to keep a few npcs in my party, and then have a few player created characters for maximum damage.

 

Short Sword of backstabbing is one of the earliest +3 weapons you can get very easily. Kundane is one of the best weapons in SoA. It's ideal for Haer Dalis, because when he has it in his off hand he gets an extra attack with his main weapon (poison or dexterity drainer). Short sword of backstabbing is the best +4 weapon available before the Underdark. Only the Giant Hammer, Mace of Disruption and staff of Rhynn will beat an improved mantle before the underdark. And the sword of the mask is one of the best ToB weapons.

There are plenty of great short swords for haer Dalis or Mazzy. Just not enough for both of them.

Foebane is a bastard sword, not a long sword. You cannot backstab with bastard swords. You may not even be proficient with it.

IIRC you can backstab with:
dagger, short sword, long sword, club, quarterstaff, katana and scimitar. Others won't work.

 

Ah, thats probably it. I know its a bastard sword, was in the watchers keep at the time. I had high or grand mastery in them, cant remember.

I'll do some experiments when I get time, see if you cant backstab while dual wielding.

Back to party analysis, what difference does having high wisdom make to a clerics casting ability? I need a cleric for the party I'll soon start, and I was thinking Aerie to kill 2 birds with one stone. If she has only 16 wis, will that make for a terrible cleric? She'll still be able to learn level 7 spells right? and her intelligence of 16 means she cant learn any level 9 spells unless she drinks a potion right?

I must say, out of all the BG2 npcs, I think Keldorn is my favourite. Give him gauntlets of dexterity and the carsomyr, you have a very useful guy. his dispel magic and true seeing have saved my ass so many times.

 

You can backstab while dual wielding. I've played most of the game backstabbing with Crom Faeyr in the off hand.

Wisdom 16 means Aerie has one fewer spell slot at level 3 and one fewer at level 4. Not great, but doesn't really have much effect on her usefulness as a caster. And NPCs don't have the same problems learning level 9 spells that the PC has.

 

So Imoen, Nalia and Aerie can all learn level 9 spells?

The reason I'm reluctant to use npc's sometimes is that they are often far from perfect. But maybe changing their kit is less of a sin than playing with all characters handmade.

I wonder if BG2 has any code to prevent someone rolling all 17's or 18's. I mean, I know its extremely unlikely, but surely its happened to someone. The way I work things out is, I add up all scores and subtract 60 (which is 6 x 10, or 6 very average scores). The result is a number which can easily shows how high a characters ability scores are. Jaheira I think got the highest score I've ever seen, 29, while someone like Edwin scores much lower (not that I dont think Edwin isnt useful). Keldorn also does very well. The problem is most characters dont fare very well, and typically get between 10 and 20, which isnt great at all.

 

Um. A party of all-17/18 stat characters gets old very quickly, as you can roll over any opposition with ease.

Getting the best out of what you have, that's the fun and challenge. And enjoying the writing and banter.

Don't let that discourage you, though. Your playing style probably is very different from mine.

 

Ya, I think it is quite different.

The first few times I played I wanted the most balanced party that could do well in all situations. Later I really started enjoying dishing out the damage. I'm not adverse to things like unnerfing grandmastery and allowing multiclass grandmastery, and other potential cheesy things. I think excessively difficult things frustrate me, and BG easily has that potential. There were times that no matter what buffs and tactics I tried, I couldnt kill Thax'silsylia (Shadow dragon to his enemies). took me too many reloads to count. on easy. I dont think I'm a crap player, I just think its a hard game.

and I think the more I play it the more removed I become from the characters as people.

 

Proteus_za what you forget is that many of the npc gets special abilities outside there normal class skills. and for instance hear'dalis has 3points in duelwielding, where a normal blade can only gain 2. and minsc got some of the wierdest stats ever + his berserker rage thingy.
Sarevok got an inate ability called deathbringers strike or something that no warrior can gain and so on.

in many cases the programmers have cheated or given the characters abilities do to their story, that often makes them far more powerfull then any homemade character would be.

 

Didnt realise that.

Cos I'm soon to be playing BG1 for the first time, I might do the game with 1 PC and 5 NPCS. So that would mean that unless I use BG1Tutu (which would allow me to change halfway through). So that would mean I would also have to use BG2 nps eventually. I suppose I could start a new BG2 game and import my character from my saved game if I really wanted to.

if I do play the game with npcs, I usually like to use Keldorn, Jaheira, Aerie, Jan and Minsc. Sometimes sub Valygar for Minsc.

 

Hi guys.

Thanks again for all your advises. It has been very interesting reading!

I guess I underestimated Valygar big time! So it looks like Felinoids and others advice about dual my PC to cleric is the way to go.

I agree with Equester that equipping Jan, Imoen or Aerie with elven chain isn't the way to go. Robe of the good/neutral archmagi or Robe of Vecna has magic resistance and a couple of other buffs which is IMHO much more important than AC on a mage char. If my mage char needs AC that bad, well then I am not doing my job right in protecting them, right?

As for equipping Mazzy or Haer'Dalis, they will have to get proficiency point in other weapons. Short swords really sucks in SoA and ToB except for the short sword of the Mask and Kundane.

But I don't agree with Ister about short sword of the Mask is one of the best weapons in ToB.

To get Cespenar to improve short sword of the Mask, the Heart of the Damned is needed, but Heart of the Damned can also be used to improve Gram the sword of Grief.

Lets compare these two shall we?

Short sword of the Mask +5: THACO +5, Damage 1D6+5, 15% chance to drain one level from opponent in every hit, 15% chance with every hit that opponent is entangled for 24 seconds no save.

Gram the sword of Grief +5: THACO +5, Damage 1D10+5, 5% Magic Resistance when equipped, 10% chance of 2d12 poison damage, each hit target must save versus death (with a -5 penalty) or lose 1 level.

IMHO the chance of opponent lose 1 level with each hit with a severe penalty to saving throw is much better than a low procent chance plus Gram really can deal some damage.

What I have experienced, is that there are only a few other weapons than Gram who effects bosses more, that would be Carsomyr, the Answerer and Flail of Ages.

So I guess Mazzy has to learn how to wield a two handed sword....

Just my 2 cents..

 

Yes. Technically, you should be required to have an 18 in intelligence to cast level 9 spells, but this isn't implemented in the game, for either the NPCs or the PCs. One thing I should point out is that Aerie won't be getting any level 7 cleric spells until late SoA, and Aerie won't be getting any level 9 mage spells until very, very late in the game, if at all. Remember, that as a multi-classed character, she splits her experience between the two classes, meaning she will need 3 million XP in each class (so 6 million total) before being able to cast level 9 spells.

Also, I'd like to point out that Minsc's wisdom has no effect on his ability to learn druid spells at all. I will acknowledge that his wisdom is so low, he shouldn't even be allowed to be a ranger, but even if his wisdom was 18 it wouldn't improve on his ability to cast druidic spells.

The only thing that wisdom effects is the number of spells you can learn for each level, and it only affects the number for clerics and druids. As previously stated, rangers and paladins get the exact same number of spells regardless of what their wisdom is. Anyway, the difference between a wisdom of 16 and 18 is remarkably small for clerics and druids. An 18 will give you two more spells than a 16. NOT two per level, but TWO TOTAL. You'll get an extra 3rd, and an extra 4th. So it's not like you'll miss out on getting extra high level spells. Seeing as how a high level cleric already has a lot of slots for 3rd and 4th level spells, you won't miss the loss of one more of each. Now, a PC cleric OTOH, can get really high wisdom scores, and really boost the number of high level spells he gets. You can start in BG1 with an 18 in wisdom, up it to 21 during BG1, up it to 23 in SoA, and get it to 24 in ToB. There isn't a big difference between 16 and 18, but there is a HUGE difference between 16 and 24!

Regarding short swords in SoA and ToB, the short sword of the Mask is an excellent choice, provided you find the need to be using short swords at that point. Any character by the time they get to late SoA/ToB should be proficient in the use of several weapons, and as such, there really isn't a particularly good reason to have to go with short swords, especially not as a main hand weapon. Gram is a much better weapon than SSotMask, but keep in mind that two handed weapons are supposed to be a lot more powerful than their single-handed counterparts. If they were not, there would be no point in selecting a two handed weapon, as you forego the ability to use a shield or dual wield.

[ September 19, 2006, 15:55: Message edited by: Aldeth the Foppish Idiot ]

 

Point taken, Aldeth.

Proteus_za: In my first game Aerie was Cleric level 23/Mage level 19 in late ToB. That goes with pretty much all side quests done in the game.

Her access to high level cleric spells was 9 spells for level 5, 7 spells for level 6 and 3 for level 7.

As for high level mage spells she had access to 4 spells for level 6,7,8 and 1 spell for level 9.

So yes, she can learn level 9 mage spells but has unfortunately only access to memorize one because she is multi-classed.

As for Imoen and Nalia when I had them together in late ToB, they were both mage level 28.

As for high level mage spells they had access to 6 spells for level 6 and 7, 5 spells for level 8 and 4 spells for level 9.

For all three that goes without equipment giving extra spells.

I hope this is helping?

 

Ya, thats great, lets me make a more informed decision. It seems either you get a character capable of both, but not either one in any real capacity. Or you choose one and attain incredible. If there was such a person available, I would dual a single class cleric to a mage. I dont really use many cleric spells past level 5 (like resurrection and righteous magic, at least for a fighter/cleric), so I could dual as soon as I have one or two of those (which I realise is still fairly high) and get some nice high powered mage spells to dish out the damage.

Pity you need so much experience.

What do you guys think about a kensai dualled to a mage, compared to a kensai/mage multiclass (I realize I will need shadowkeeper to accomplish that).

 

Forgot about this in my last post. I'd like to point out that this method is far from telling the whole story. You have to look at how thier ability scores effect the game. For example, Minsc has low scores in intelligence, wisdom and charisma. However, there is no game impact on these scores being low, so who cares?

I also don't consider 80 total ability points to be particularly low (which would be a 20 via your method). I've made several PCs who were in the low 80s in total ability scores. High totals are only mandatory if you desire to dual class. Multi-classes aren't that bad, as you are guaranteed minimum rolls in two classes, meaning you can put together a decent character with just a few rolls more often than not.

While I normally favor multi-classes, the exception to this is when mage is one of the classes. Here I recommend the dual-class route because 1.) a kensai is pretty much as good as he is ever going to get by the time he hits level 13, and really by the time he's level 9 he's more than capable and 2.) you get access to high level mage spells much more quickly.

 

I agree for a lot of characters it doesnt tell the whole story. Mages can get by with as little as 8.

But as you say, its important for dual class and multiclass characters, and classes that are reliant upon more than 2 stats. Even fighters benefit from strength, constitution and dexterity (do other stats affect saving throws in BG2 like in IWD2?), so having 24 for a fighter would make for a better fighter than one with 8. Granted, the one with 8 could minimize intelligence and charisma (an ugly stupid brute), but I prefer not to do that if possible.

And paladins are supposed to benefit from everything except intelligence.

 

Hey, I said it was ONE of the best weapons. Gram is excellent too.

The chances of a level drain with Gram are probably about double that of SOTM. Anyone worth level draining has excellent saves, so odds are they will save on an 8 or so. So maybe 35% chance of level drain? Clearly Gram wins there.

Gram will do an average extra damage of 2.7 hp relative to SOTM, 2 because it's d10 instead of d6, and 0.7 average from the poison. This is something, but not much, at this point you should easily have 7 damage points from strength, 5 from the sword enchantment, and 2 from specializtion. So SOTM averages say 17.5, while Gram averages 20.2. A slight edge from Gram.

But SOTM has two advantages that I think outweigh the small extra damage and double chance of a level drain from Gram.

First, the entangle. It is a low probability event. But in important fights you'er going to be advanced hasted, and so you should be getting in 5 attacks per round. Nine with a whirlwing attack. (7 with Kundane). The high APR is what makes the level drain worth anything. With advanced haste you should easily get the entangle to fire in two rounds, and a large number of enemies are completely helpless once entangled. The number of enemies who are wiped out by the entangle is quite a bit higher than the number who are truly hurt by the level drain. The latter are spell casters who do tend to be a bigger problem, but I really think the entagle is more useful than the level drain.

Second is the ability to use a shield or offhand weapon. This allows you to get specific immunities in different situations, to add an extra attack with SOTM with Kundane, and generally gives you more flexibility.

To me the tradeoff is a little better damage for Gram, and double the chance of a level drain, against entagling melee opponent and having immunities or 2 extra attackes with SOTM.

Personally I give the edge to SOTM, but it's a close call. I think they are both among the very best weapons in the game. To me, Carsomyr is better, FOA may be a bit better, and Answerer might be slightly worse. I'd also include staff of the Ram +6 in the group.

Edit: I realize that when I posted this I forgot one pretty big advantage for Gram, and perhaps the most important disadvantage of short swords. Piercing damage is resisted far more often then slashing damage. I still prefer SOTM, but anyone who wants to argue that they prefer not to have any piercing damage has a good argument in my book.

[ September 20, 2006, 16:01: Message edited by: ister ]

 

Good analysis Ister. Point taken.

I forgot the staff of the Ram +6 and perhaps also Ixils Spike +6 which I have heard should be very efficient against bosses, if one is in to spears. Not that I have tried though.

I find that the Answerer is very effective with its lowering of magic resistance by 15% and penalty of -2 to AC for each hit to opponent, but maybe its just me.

But you certainly got me thinking

 

Oh, I agree, the Answerer is also great, just not quite as good. And I'd forgotten Ixil's spike. I haven't used spears, but the pin feature is better than the entangle from SOTM. Sadly it allows a save without any penalty, so I would think that SOTM (and Gram) is a bit better.

 

Hehe. My current protagonist evil bard adds up to ... 70 points of ability scores. It's all fun anyway.