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Now that Bhaal is back ...

Discussion in 'Baldur's Gate 2: Enhanced Edition' started by Beren, May 11, 2016.

  1. Beren

    Beren Lovesick and Lonely Wanderer Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    And as a Greater Power no less ... how does it affect your gaming experience when playing the BG series? Your perceptions? Does the story and the events within still make sense? Does it feel pointless?

    Granted, it is years afterwards. I'd just like to see what people here think.
     
  2. xosmi Gems: 20/31
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    I assume you are talking about how in 5th edition a lot of the old dead gods (inc;luding bhaal) have been restored to their position because of the Sundering ?

    I don't really mind that to be honest - we all knew that events as described in the baldur's gate games were not entirely canon to begin with.
    Hell, in the 2013 "Murder in Baldur's Gate" campaign, the same thing happens. Abdel adrian and Viekang (the 2 remaining bhaalspawn) fight, and whomever survives receives all the essence of bhaal, turning into the slayer and when subsequently killed thereafter, it causes Bhaal to rise again.

    Even disregarding that campaign, the endings you are presented with in BG2 would not last anyway. (not since 4th edition anyway.)
    The events in baldur's gate 1 & 2 take place during 1368 - 1369 DR. Canonically, the Spellplague happens in 1385 DR when Mystra is killed by Cyric, so roughly 15/16 years after the end of the game.
    Meaning that most of the PC's (those that survived at least) would be tossed into another decade of turmoil, and most of them probably would not live to see the end of it.

    That said, now in the 5th edition, the Sundering is a big retcon by Ao (read : WoTC trying to undo the unholy mess that is 4th edition) where he re-writes the Tablets of Fate which were shattered at the end of the Time of troubles, and which set in motion the Era of Upheaval/The Spellplague in the first place. It basically undoes the effects of the spellplague while not reversing the timeline.
     
  3. Keneth Gems: 28/31
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    What difference does it make? It's not like we haven't always known that our choices would be temporary at best.

    Just about every adventurer goes out there fully expecting to die a horrible death at some point and perfectly aware that their actions are just ripples in the ocean of time, even if they don't want to consciously acknowledge it. But they do it anyway because just giving it everything they have is enough. Because they are drawn to action instead of wallowing in the futility of it all.

    It's not about being perfect. It's not about making all the right choices. It's not about some hypothetical future over which you have no power over. It's about making ripples in the now because that's something you can do. We're drawn to stories about adventurers, be they heroes or villains, because they live their lives to the fullest potential.

    What happens after is irrelevant. "Happily ever after" is just something we tell our kids to preserve their sanity (and ours by avoiding incessant questions). :shake:
     
  4. henkie

    henkie Hammertime Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    I don't follow D&D editions and updates, so it doesn't affect my experience in BG at all.

    Then again, I barely notice the story on playthroughs after so many times going through it already.
     
  5. Paracelsi

    Paracelsi Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    It can be confusing. Some of these deities already had an entire campaign built around their ultimate demise (eg. Myrkul and NWN2:MotB's Spirit Eater storyline).

    On the plus side, Minsc and Boo are now officially canon so the implication is that on some unique parallel world/dimension the events set into motion by your Baldur's Gate/IWD PCs DID happen. Sadly, this means that your world is now missing 1 Rashemi ranger-berserker and 1 miniature giant space hamster.
     
    pplr likes this.
  6. Paracelsi

    Paracelsi Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Ok guys, a little update from Neverwinter (lore is considered canon).

    The events leading to Bhaal's return are rather vague, but it seems the canon Bhaalspawn was living a quiet life after the events of the BG games (maybe he picked the missing "leave the throne of Bhaal alone" ending) when Viekang (remember him?), apparently driven mad, suddenly appears from out of nowhere and attacks him. Chaos ensues and at least one of them dies, which (combined with 5E events) somehow provides Bhaal with enough mojo to come back.

    Many of the events from the BG games are now considered canon. It seems WotC decided that the events in the games/books/sourcebook adventures all actually happened BUT in different realities, and when Lord Ao decided to stitch together the remnants D&D universe in 5E he wasn't particularly picky about where he got his FR histories from. ATM, the only BG-related details I've been able to confirm are:

    1) Minsc/Boo and their role in the Bhaalspawn saga is now canon.
    2) Viconia De Vir and her role in the Bhaalspawn saga is now canon.
    3) Linu Laneral (from the NWN series) is now canon.

    BTW most of the hows/whats/whos/whats/whens/wheres/whys seem deliberately left vague. It is implied that Minsc's sudden appearance in the game (the MMO begins roughly 100+ years after the events of ToB) has something to do with him being petrified, but Minsc never really confirms this even when Drizzt (yes, that Drizzt - in-game Minsc is able to keep up with him combat-wise) asks him the question directly.
    This info is stitched together from multiple lore journal entries.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2016
  7. Keneth Gems: 28/31
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    That's hardly surprising.
     
  8. Eyebreaker7

    Eyebreaker7 Someone clean my litter box ★ SPS Account Holder Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    Is that supposed to be the Abdel the game has as a default fighter you can play?

    I tried to keep up with it but I got lost some time between 1st and 2nd I think. I read the Time of Troubles and then got lost trying to keep up. Not a hard core reader I guess :p
     
  9. pplr Gems: 18/31
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    I like that Minsc is canon just because they made one of the best figures in the game canon.

    That said it is a bit of a let down because I went through it doing both things-becoming a new D&D god and coming back as a human-and some of those fights were to make sure Bhaal didn't come back.

    I may do another BG2 run where I make a point of not helping Viekang get out of the town under siege (or do something to him myself).

    About him taking on the character who was "charname" in BG2 I find that a bit surprising as "charname" probably would've mopped the floor with him and Imoen probably could have as well. And even if he to not be killed the false harpers came up with a way to handle that.

    I think Myrkul coming back is a bit worse because, storyline wise, he was really supposed to be the most dead of each of the dead 3. The one who was really really dead. I even have a copy of NWN2:MoTB were I was going to do a copy of run throughs and eat (or put to rest) him in each.

    Though I am amused that Talos got consumed by an D&D orc god.
     
  10. Paracelsi

    Paracelsi Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Abdel Adrian is the Bhaalspawn from the Baldur's Gate novels. He was originally canon, but after the events of 5E the story got retconned. As far as the present canon goes we do not know for sure who the Bhaalspawn is (it is implied to be the PC from the BG games).

    Viekang's innate ability is a powerful one (teleportation as a fear response) and the events leading to the resurrection of Bhaal happens some 100+ years or so after the events of BG2 (don't ask me how Charname managed to survive that long). Lots of time to turn a llowly, good-natured, timid Bhaalspawn into a high level mad/insane assassin. Still, we never actually find out who survived the duel and how (given the new canon) Bhaal was able to come back because of it. The original canon ending implied that both Viekang/Charname died, which resulted in Bhaal's resurrection. I think WotC left the new canon ending vague on purpose because of Minsc and co. (the original canon Minsc was some red-haired inkeeper or something in the BG novels - yeah, there's a reason why the novels almost universally shunned/hated).

    I'm personally very happy that they decided to make Viconia canon. She's now one of the last survivors of house De Vir (the only other known survivor is an insanely powerful archmage who will play a major role in 5E's "The Maze Engine" Neverwinter expansion, and who is also looking for her). From the lore journal, it seems Viconia's "good" ending is now canon (she helps the Bhaalspawn in his quest and does something incredibly heroic like saving Suldanesslar, because her exploits are well-known to loremasters and she seems to be both a respected and enigmatic figure in 5E Neverwinter).
    She has yet to actually appear in-game, though.

    Linu has grown from being a bumbling, accident-prone wandering priestess into a well-respected, high level cleric of Sehanine Moonbow (revealed to be Selune, hence the power boost I guess). In Neverwinter she plays an important role in stymieing the Cult of the Dragon's efforts to open a portal for D&D's Tiamat to invade the Forgotten Realms pantheon.

    BTW Deekin is also mentioned in passing and actually has a street named after him. Neverwinter is now more tolerant towards Kobolds - the pesky, aggressive ones are still hunted down, but there are now things like Kobold merchants in Neverwinter.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2016
  11. magisensei Gems: 1/31
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    I normally read the novels but it really doesn't have any impact on my crpg in general. I think it would be interesting to incorporate whats happening in Faerun now with BG but remember it is almost two different worlds - one belonged to TSR and this one to Wizards of the Coast. If Wotc wanted to have an impact on the BG game it would have done so already and it might in the future if it wants to - I think I read a post someplace that said Wotc would not allow a gaming company to use its Planescape rpg to make a sequel to Planescape Torment; so if wotc wanted to make an impact on the gaming world of BG it could do so - but for the moment it doesn't so I will basically ignore everything that wotc will do with its new 5th edition rules and just enjoy reading the novels and playing my classic crpg separately.
     
  12. Vhailor

    Vhailor Justice is not blind, for I am her eyes Veteran

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    Does anyone know what party is considered cannon now with Abdel. I don't think the books count.
     
  13. Paracelsi

    Paracelsi Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Abdel is no longer canon, I think.

    Minsc and Viconia are confirmed to have traveled with the Bhaalspawn, but I don't know if they were there with him in the end.
     
  14. Vhailor

    Vhailor Justice is not blind, for I am her eyes Veteran

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    I heard Abdel is cannon now
    http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Bhaal
    For a time it was believed that Bhaal's resurrection had been ended. The last known Bhaalspawn, Abdel Adrian, resisted the murderous impulses caused by his lineage and became a famed and beloved figure in the city of Baldur's Gate. Near the beginning of the era known as "The Sundering" another Bhaalspawn, Viekang, who was thought dead, attacked Adrian as he spoke to a crowd in the portion of town known as The Wide. The ultimate winner of the duel is unknown, although it matters not as the victor transformed into a massive, blood soaked creature and began a rampage which was only stopped when a group of adventurers new to Baldur's Gate defeated and killed the monstrosity.[6]
     
  15. Paracelsi

    Paracelsi Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Abdel Adrian was the protagonist from the novels (check the references). He was canon, but after the events of 5E we're just not sure anymore. What we do know is that the new canon is made up of bits and pieces of lore from multiple sources (novels, source campaigns, video games).
    For example, in the world of Abdel Adrian the character of Minsc is very different.

     
  16. damedog Gems: 15/31
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    Linu Laneral? From the NWN OC? Now that is a name I never expected to hear again. Not the first one I would have picked of the bunch, but meh.

    Personally, I just like the fact that BG and NWN and all the rest of the good DnD games exist in a world where the lore is continuously unfolding. One of the reasons I like DnD of all forms so much in the first place.
     
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