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Noncitizens' rights

Discussion in 'Alley of Lingering Sighs' started by khaavern, Jun 16, 2006.

  1. khaavern Gems: 14/31
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    I read this in the NYTimes yesterday. I thought it will get bigger play in the press, but aparently not (not yet, anyhow).

    What the article says is that a judge in NY has ruled that people in US who are noncitizens can pretty much be detained at the government discretion (what "government" means is not clear to me; INS? FBI? the police?) and hold for as long as the government wants.

    from the article
    This is quite scary, I would think. I am not inclined to cry "fascism" every time the government oversteps its bounds, but ... what the heck? This is something you'd expect in Soviet Russia. I thought in a democracy people have some basic rights, no matter if they are citizens or not, and the right not to be arbitrarily imprisoned is one of them.
     
  2. NOG (No Other Gods)

    NOG (No Other Gods) Going to church doesn't make you a Christian

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    The key thing to remember here is that these are non-citizens. Now I'm not saying this is right, but from a legal standpoint non-citizens don't have many rights as far as I know. I'm not a lawyer and I'd love to hear the perspective of one, but it seems to me that things like the constitution cover rights the government must give to the governed. What we do with citizens of other nations is between our government, their government, and them.
     
  3. Fabius Maximus Gems: 19/31
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    This really is scary.

    From my point of view, the only rights non-citizen do not have are those of participating in elections.

    Maybe they don't have explicit citizen-rights, but as far as I know, the US have signed and ratified the universal declaration of human rights. So they have to guarantee these rights to every human being living within their borders.
     
  4. Captain Jean-Luc Picard Gems: 2/31
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    i contest this is a violation of the Universial Declaration Of Human Rights

    Un Human Rights
     
  5. Chandos the Red

    Chandos the Red This Wheel's on Fire

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    NOG - I'm so glad this came up because it's important to understand what the Founding Brothers felt when they first crafted the principles on which this nation was founded (and I wish I had more time, atm, to comment on this). The Bill of Rights to the Constitution was first suggested by Thomas Jefferson, who had been in Europe during the Convention. He suggested the Bill to James Madison, who was one of the chief framers of the orignal document. Jefferson's remarks were: "these rights should be extended to all mankind." The spirit of these rights, within the thoughts of the Founders, was that they were dealing with "fundamental rights of mankind" not just citizens.

    Notice that one of the main points of the DoI is that the denial of the basic rights of man is one of the driving forces behind the break with England. "We hold these truths to be self-evident...." It is always advised to go back and read the actual texts regarding what the Founders thought they were accomplishing with the creation of their new nation. It may surprise you a bit.
     
  6. khaavern Gems: 14/31
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    I guess that's exactly my point. I don't expect that noncitizens have the same rights as citizens, but still, as human beings, I thought they enjoy some unalienable rights.

    Captain JLP : should be "contend" not "contest" :) otherwise it has kind of the opposite meaning :)
     
  7. Carcaroth

    Carcaroth I call on the priests, saints and dancin' girls ★ SPS Account Holder

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    How is the tourist industry in the US at the moment? There is a big marketing campaign over here, particularly for Florida, because the British are fed up with the imigration policies at US airports and are chosing to go elsewhere. This could easily be another nail in the coffin, I can see the Tabloid headlines now...
     
  8. Aikanaro Gems: 31/31
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    Guh - since when was discrimination only a bad thing when it happened to your own citizens...?
     
  9. The Great Snook Gems: 31/31
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    I guess I'm just too much of a law and order kind of guy. As far as I'm concerned if someone is here illegally I don't have any sympathy for them. I didn't read the entire thing, but I would be a little surprised if the intent was to arrest and hold European visitors to DisneyWorld. They tend to come, spend money, and then go home like all good tourists should.
     
  10. joacqin

    joacqin Confused Jerk Veteran

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    It never stops surprising me the amount of resentment and vitriol so many Americans seems to hold against people who flee to their country in desperation with the hope of a better life but knowing they have no chance with the official channels they skip them. Skipping that seems to turn human beings into entities more despicable than child rapists in the eyes of many many Americans.
     
  11. Abomination Gems: 26/31
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    It's because these people pose a threat. If they're able to enter a country undetected it also means they were able to bring things with them that could be illegal, dangerous or both. Not to mention their intentions could be unsavory.

    Indeed it's all good and noble to seek salvation in a new land, but the land is under no obligation to provide salvation to those who are not its citizens.

    As for the intnet of the article, they're after illegal immigrants, not tourists who are trackable and have passports.
    And why do they have no chance? A country is free to discriminate against who it allows in and who it doesn't. I can't blame America for protecting American interests. You might as well demand that any time someone walks past a begger they 'have' to give them money. It's absurd.
     
  12. The Great Snook Gems: 31/31
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    I believe that America is starting to wake up after seeing what uncontrolled immigration is doing to Europe.
     
  13. Faraaz Gems: 26/31
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    Another reason why I'm going to be going to the UK instead of the US for my post-graduate business degree...

    I was going to go to the States for my Bachelors but ended up in Australia instead post 9/11. After all, a Bush led US is not the most friendly place for an Indian Muslim at the moment... :p
     
  14. joacqin

    joacqin Confused Jerk Veteran

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    Should you be allowed to kick the beggar in the face without any repercussions? That seems to be what many of you want to do with illegal immigrants.

    And what would that be? I reckon we should just let people die in war and famine because hey, they arent born in the same patch of land as me and they have a different color of their hair.

    This xenophobia and thinly veiled racism pisses me off, a human is a human is a human. Yes there are problems but they need to solved not lead us to look down on our fellow man. The only difference betweem the people you despise so much Snook is accident of birth. You were lucky, they were not, why does that make you into a better human?
     
  15. Dendri Gems: 20/31
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    This isnt about xenophobia or racism. Dont know about the US - or you 9 million Swedes up there - but parts of Europe cant take anymore. France and the Netherlands, for example, are on the brink of... whatever. I can only wonder how they could let affairs come to this... I fear they will never be made whole again. I dont see how. A pity, really.

    And I dont see the point in importing the deficiency of other nations into Europe (or the US). Unless the point is to turn the Europeans into xenophobes indeed...
    Where these people come from there will always be more. Far too many to make a difference. The only sane solution is to improve the conditions in their respective home nations, rather than ignoring our own interests and the very real danger of civil strife on our grounds. Like addressing the root of the problem, yes? Not upsetting Europe any more with utterly irresponsible political agendas. I am all for helping the less fortunate, and totally against denying my own people their rights to safety.
     
  16. The Great Snook Gems: 31/31
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    I fail to see how someone wanting to preserve their way of life and culture turns them into a racist and a xenophobe. I work with South Africans, Indians, Chinese, Vietnamese, Polish, Venezualans, and so many more I can't count. I have no desire to kick any of them out of the country. The reason is because they have a desire to be American, not what they were where they were from. What they are bringing to American culture is beautiful, but note they are adding to it, not ignoring it and demanding that our culture adapt to them. That is a huge difference.
     
  17. Saber

    Saber A revolution without dancing is not worth having! Veteran

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    I think non-citizens should not have the right to vote, but that is about it.

    Except for illegal immigrants: they should be deported.
     
  18. Abomination Gems: 26/31
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    What? How do you get this? They're illegal immigrants. They shouldn't be in the country in the first place. They should be sent back to wherever they came from or be sent through the proper channels if they wish to enter a country.

    Demanding that America grant almost equal rights to illegal immigrants is insane. Amierca is not the world's babysitter as many people claim. If you don't want them to invade whoever they like and clean up any mess they like then don't also expect them to have to take care of every vagabond or displaced person who manages to crawl across their border.
     
  19. Liriodelagua Gems: 4/31
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    I'm also in favor of people staying in their own countries...

    please bring your soldiers back home, asap. The world needs it.
    Sorry I don't dare commenting on this any further. I think too much of racism and colonialism and hypocrisy and ignorance and history and stuff. It's very complicated. So I just state my opinion that we should try to live in peace with our neighbours. Nothing less.
     
  20. khaavern Gems: 14/31
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    How did this became a thing about "illegal immigrants" again? From my reading of the article, it does not seem to specify that this applies only to illegal immigrants; what is says is "noncitizens". That could very well mean visitors to the US, with visas completely legal and such. Of course, one could think that the chances of a white-skinned, european visitor being detained without explanation are practically nil; but then are arabic, muslim people fundamentally different?

    Another quote from the article makes this clear
     
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