No Kids Allowed!

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If your kids happen to see you as their best friend, that's awesome. There's not a thing in the world wrong with that. Where it becomes a problem is when you reciprocate those feelings, and forget that you're the parent (because you're too busy being the friend).

My boys tell me I'm the best dad in the world (I'll enjoy that while it lasts, because they will realize just how dead wrong they are soon enough I'm sure), and I've been told I was their best friend, their favorite, etc. That's all good and part of the fun of being a parent.

 

Snook, ok, where do you draw the line between abuse and your "discipline"? I have read where they draw the line in some places and it is bizarre reading. Detailing age, "force", placement and so forth. Where is your line? Whether you want to accept it or not you are arguing for the people who beat their children.

Oh and back in the day they did "spank" children like Chandos' son and others like him, again and again and again and again. Look at old records for schools and such, it is the same children being beaten time and time again. Must have been because it was so effective.

 

I am asking what the difference is, where does one turn into the other? You guys seem so sure of yourself so you should be able to point it out. But I guess I should bow out, been on these forums for a decade now and I have learned not to go into a discussion with Taluntain. It is his boards after all and I have to accept that.

 

joacqin, if you care to, take a look at my post (post 32) in this thread. It outlines what (in my view at least) is an appropriate spanking policy. In California, this most certainly would not be considered "beating" from a legal perspective.

I agree that there's a fine line, and it's easy to cross it. But there is a line, nonetheless.

 

I made up all the names, FYI.

 

Sorry to hear that. Hopefully it's one of those situations where it's him getting worse before he gets better. "Typical" kids have those periods where they are tougher to manage, and it gets a lot easier as they get older. Those difficult timeframes in a child's life can be compounded significantly when a child is dealing with neurological/psychological issues. But such behaviors often improve significantly once even a "special needs" child gets to a certain age. But as you say, every kid is different.

Stay strong man, and keep fighting the good fight for your son.

 

Thank you, Merc. The last 5 months have been difficult, since we started realizing what's happening with him. He has some markers. For instance, he is oppessed with objects rather than toys. He's into clothes hangers at the moment and he gathers them from every room in the house and stacks them neatly on his chair in the game room. Every morning he starts gathering them.

But the worst part is the lack of verbal and language skills. At 3 years old he can't express himself and he becomes frustrated and begins throwing things, hitting every one in sight and just screaming at the top of his voice. He contantly attacks his sisters giving them bloody lips, bumps and bruises, since he attacks them with any object he can use as a weapon. Then he smiles and laughs, with no empathy for the damage he has caused.

I tried spanking him a few times on the bottom. It taught him to spank himself when he does something wrong. He hits himself as hard as he can on the bottom as soon as he does something he knows he sould not have [like attacking one of his sisters]. It's heartbreaking for all of us.

 

A lot of that rings a bell. The ritualistic stuff, particularly. My son used to have a complete meltdown if we didn't let him walk up the stairs first to our (then) apartment. We're not just talking a kid throwing a fit here. This was an extreme anxiety attack that paralyzed him until the situation was "fixed" by us all going down the stair and doing it over... the "proper" way.

His favorite items were matchbox cars, which is more appropriate than hangers, for sure. But the way he would play with them was anything but appropriate. He would put them (all he could find) into the middle of a room and start lining them up. NOT ONE CAR could be played with by another person. Even if he had 30 cars to himself, if another kid had even 1 car within view, my son had to have that one too. There was no such thing as sharing, and you can imagine how well that went over when visiting with a friend with kids....

My son turns 8 on Saturday. He's been in some sort of instructor/student environment since he was 18 months old. Other than a few issues that are too subtle for most people to pickup on, he's able to do everything a kid his age is supposed to do, and I think largely because of his autism, is doing extremely well in school. I'm sure he's going to be twice as smart as me when he gets older, so in spite of many really rough years, the hard work is paying off.

I don't know if that will be your son's story Chandos, but I hope that with time, and lots of focused attention and help you will see dramatic improvements in your son's behavior. 3 is still very young. Anything can happen.

My best to you and your family on this.

By the way... it's Marc, not Merc.

 

Sorry, for the misspelling, Marc. And the same to you and yours.

 

I'm not insensitive to the challemges families face when their child is special needs. What I am saying is that there has to be a line somewhere wherein regardless of the child's difficulties, the rights of others to have a nice evening out, or the rights of other kids on the playground are also respected. That means curtailing the behaviour of these kids one way or another.

The situations I wrote of are ones that I have seen firsthand or heard about from second hand sources. I made up the names for narrative purposes -- they are all out of the blue kind of names and refer to no specific person.

I also want to go on record and say that I believe any child can be taught -- up to the level of his cognitive threshold. My friends have a special needs kid. He was diagnosed at a young age. They worked with him, provided structure and guidance so that the boy would have the tools to interact appropriately in society. When I met this boy, he was around 13. He seemed like any 13 year old boy, except for a propensity to get a little loud and giggly when he was excited. When his dad told me he was special needs (and he told me some of the diagnoses that had been handed down years ago) I thought he was lying. He told me all of the stuff they did. It was eye-opening.

Now this doesn't mean that I believe that if everyone used my friend's techniques, their kids will come out OK (the boy is 22 or so now, studying at University) You can't treat kids like cookie dough and come at them with cookie cutters. But the idea that some parents seem to have, which is "oh, well, what the hell, we'll just let them do whatever they want regardless of the effects on other people" is one that I think is reprehensible.

I wasn't thinking of special needs kids, though, when I was talking earlier. I was talking about kids with no special medical conditions who get no guidance or direction from their parents, and learn nothing about decent public behaviour. Those are the kids that have triggered this trend of companies just getting fed up with anti-social crap and barring children from their premises.

 

I guess I'll be the one dumb enough to respond....

First we should define a spanking; it is a punishment, in the form of an impact on the meaty portion of the buttocks. This is a very general definition and there is no distinction between spanking and abuse in that definition. I also believe that spanking should only be done for extreme behavior -- if you strike your child every time they say or do something you don't like you are simply teaching them that striking another is an acceptable way to show displeasure.

I'll start with a "legal" distinction -- if the punishment could be classified as "assault" then it is not a spanking and is abuse. That is unfortunately a very gray definition which depends on the local laws.

My personal distinctions:

- The goal of a spanking is to get the child's attention, not to hurt the child. If the goal of the punishment is to hurt the child it is abuse. This may not make sense but a spanking is used to correct dangerous behavior, not to make the child pay for doing something the parent doesn't like.
- A spanking is never done while the parent is angry.
- A spanking is never done as a retaliatory attack.
- The force used in a spanking should not be disproportionate to the strength of the child (i.e., never hit a child harder than they can hit).
- The physical pain from a spanking should only last a few minutes at most.
- Only use the palm of the hand for a spanking. This is the only way to gage the force of impact.
- There will come a time when the child will shift from being responsive to a spanking to being resentful; after this point a spanking is no longer a useful parenting tool and may be abuse (even if the punishments are mild).
- There will come a time when the child is not affected by the temporary discomfort of a spanking; after this point spanking is no longer a useful parenting tool. This is dangerous as many parents may resort to more extreme measures which will shift the punishment to abuse.

I had a rough childhood. My step-father had a very heavy hand and there were times I did not believe I would survive (I still look back and wonder how I did survive those years). Yet I have spanked my children -- a total of eleven times for four children and I felt ill after every time.

 

You white folk are funny.
You don't listen to mom or dad or grandma or granddad as a kid, you can expect to get your @$$ whipping. If you ever notice, we(most blacks) don't have a problem with disciplining a child in public or private.

 

There's no need for you to bring race into this -- unless that's all you've got.

If you mean to say by "disciplining," that it's striking them, in that case, no, not really. And I have worked with the public. If you mean to say time out or some other method of disciplining, then I suppose it's same as anyone else, regardless of race. Btw, as I warned some parents who didn't have sense enough not to strike their kids in pulblic, or one who was twisting her child's arm behind his back, just about everything they do is on camera. The parents use a little more caution when they know the actions are being recorded.

In fact, I learned some of my time out methods with my kids in public from a black woman, with whom I worked. For instance taking them into a restroom and putting them into one of the stalls for 5 minutes, which works wonders.

 

Thats funny from a liberal, thats what they always fall back on.
Honestly though, Race is a very important part of it as there are different racial memes regarding discipline.
I meant just what I said, we will spank a child when needed & consequences be damned. raised 4 kids, numerous nieces/nephews & helped raise 5 grandkids. When required, spanking is the fastest best answer for a lot of situations. All this touchy feely crap is just that,crap. All it does is teach the little demons that they can get away with anything if they will just promise mommy & daddy that their little angels have learned their lesson & will never ever do it again. Oh & they also have a bridge to sell you!

You seem to be under the impression that just because you(or others) have a child with special needs, that the rest of us should just suffer in silence when they act out. Not just no but hell naw.
Got a kid that cant/wont behave in public places, keep'em home. Your right to a nice night out at a restaurant isn't more important than that of everybody else there. Kid raising cain at a movie? GTFO, no refund, buy bye, dont let the door hitcha where the good lord splitcha!
I have absolutely no respect for those who dont discipline their own.

 

Honestly?

Oh, don't take just an impression, rg, I really don't give a damn if you, and people like you, suffer in silence or not. That's a you problem, not a me problem.

 

Chandos, I know you better than to believe you just don't give a damn about other people. When any child, regardless of his situation, is being ridiculously disruptive in public, it's not that the other people present are bad, judgmental people. They have rights, and from what you said yourself, sometimes you remove the child from the situation. Surely the rights of your fellow citizens are at least a factor in the decision, right?

 

That's right, for most people. Anyone who bothered to read my earlier posts knows that we always manage the situation so not to distrub others. However, anyone with rg's attitude - I don't think so. I really don't give a damn if people like him are bothered. That's not a personal attack, only that the guy hasn't even bothered to read my posts, but only rant on about his own perspective. He is ony demonstrating that he is more "special needs" than my son.

 

I agree with rg58. My neighbours are Nigerian and they seem a lot more relaxed about the whole thing. They do discipline their kids pretty severely but the kids are well adjusted and happy. All you hear from their house is laughter
That's the thing, I think. It's all about being relaxed. They don't go mental over every little thing and so the kids know that if they do go mad then they've done something really wrong.
Us whities are far too uptight about the whole thing really

 

Are you basing your conception that black familes are well-adjusted off of your experience with one neighbor? I wonder what the real evidence is regarding well-adjusted families by race.