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No First Amendment if They Ban You

Discussion in 'Game/SP News & Comments' started by chevalier, Oct 2, 2009.

  1. Ziad

    Ziad I speak in rebuses Veteran

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    I don't believe I dodged the issue, and my argument had absolutely nothing to do with corporatism. A company owns their office space to the same extent that, if I as an individual went to buy office space, I would own it, and to the same extent that I own a bought house. If I let someone into my house and he start trashing the place I have every right to throw him out, just like Sony had every right to throw out someone who went into their place and started trashing it. This is not about corporatism because the situation would have been exactly the same if an individual owned the forum - many posters have already given you SP as an example, though I noticed you've pointedly ignored them. You seem to think that free speech trumps property rights and that you should be allowed to do anything you want, anywhere you want, and most of us just disagree. You're allowed to do anything you want on your own property. You're allowed to do most things you want on public property. On someone else's private property, whether "someone else" is an individual or a corporation, you do not have the right to do whatever you want. It's that simple. Sony have a right to kick out a forumgoer if he breaks their rules, just like you have a right to kick out a visitor to your house if he starts peeing on your sofa. It's your place, you decide who gets to come in and what they do or (more to the point) say in there.

    And just in case someone argues that saying something offensive and peeing on the sofa are not the same thing - it doesn't matter. They're still something that the owner of the property doesn't want done, and he/she/it/they has/have the final say.
     
  2. Splunge

    Splunge Bhaal’s financial advisor Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    I'm not dodging anything. As I said, nobody has the freedom to express themselves unless somebody or something grants that freedom. Just like nobody has the freedom to drive, the freedom to carry a gun, the freedom to drink alcohol, etc. unless it is granted.
     
  3. Thrasher91604

    Thrasher91604 For those who know ...

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    Whether or not a right is granted is not the question. The question is whether or not free speech is more important the property rights.

    Ziad at least has told us his views on this. I happen to disagree with him on that, as it smacks of facism and corporatism.
     
  4. Splunge

    Splunge Bhaal’s financial advisor Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    OK, then my answer is no. If I own something, I should be able to dictate what is said within that piece of property. Not about it, but within it. You want to complain about my property, do it somewhere else.
     
  5. Blades of Vanatar

    Blades of Vanatar Vanatar will rise again Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Bingo!
     
  6. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    The argument would IMO be better framed as a right to privacy vs. right to free speech issue. Property rights don't really have much to do with it other than defining a space where you can expect to have privacy.

    And the right to privacy is more important to me than the right to free speech.
     
  7. LKD Gems: 31/31
    Latest gem: Rogue Stone


    Veteran

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    Bang freaking on. Walk into your job and call the boss an <expletiving expletive> and then try to hide behind a free speech shield. You'll be laughed out of court. Freedom of expression is limited by the rights of others, just as all rights are limited by the rights of others.
     
  8. NOG (No Other Gods)

    NOG (No Other Gods) Going to church doesn't make you a Christian

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    My point is that they don't come into conflict. If you are speaking on someone else's property, there is no freedom of speech. Freedom of speech only exists with relation to the Government.

    I'm not dodging the issue, I just don't see a medium for comparison. It's like asking which is more important: eating talking or walking? They don't interfere with each other, so there's no basis by which to compare their priorities.
     
  9. Thrasher91604

    Thrasher91604 For those who know ...

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    Actially that's not what you said. You said that someone is not free to express themselves if they are on your property. Guess what, that's a conflict.
     
  10. Splunge

    Splunge Bhaal’s financial advisor Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Nope. What NOG said was that freedom of speech doesn't apply if they are on your property (not that "freedom of expession" is any different from "freedom of speech"). And freedom of speech is defined under the constitution as applying to government restricitons only. Freedom of speech doesn't exist in relation to private property, so there is no conflict.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2009
  11. Montresor

    Montresor Mostly Harmless Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder

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    Property rights. Without them, there can be no other rights.

    See it this way: What is more important to you, the right to own and rule your own home, or my right to enter it at will in order to shout abuse at you and your family?

    If you want to speak your mind, you have every right to do so - in YOUR home, on YOUR Web site, in YOUR newspaper, on YOUR radio station. But if you go to the trouble of buying a home or creating a Web site, a newspaper or a radio station, that doesn't give me the right to use your facilities to speak my mind.

    You do NOT have the right to express yourself freely. You have the right to express yourself on your own property! Expressing yourself on other peoples' property is not a right, it is a privilege.
     
  12. Thrasher91604

    Thrasher91604 For those who know ...

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    I'm not referring to the constitution. I'm referring to the general principle.

    ---------- Added 0 hours, 3 minutes and 56 seconds later... ----------

    Can you prove this?
     
  13. Montresor

    Montresor Mostly Harmless Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder

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    I'm also referring to the general principle.

    Without the right to own and hold property, I don't see any use for any other rights.

    If I could create a newspaper or a Web site, only to see it misused by spammers, neo-nazis or whoever else wanted to misuse my creation for their purpose, I would certainly not bother creating anything.

    I regret if this (or the remainder of my original post above) is not proof enough to you. It is to me.
     
  14. Thrasher91604

    Thrasher91604 For those who know ...

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    So the right to live is less important than owning property?
     
  15. NOG (No Other Gods)

    NOG (No Other Gods) Going to church doesn't make you a Christian

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    Ah, well then the answer to your question is: both. What I mean by that is that neither should ever absolutely over-rule the other, but rather the situation should determine which rules. When you are on someone else's property, their property rights over-rule your right to speak. In cases like malls, where private property has become an open forum and gathering place, then freedom of speech should rule over property rights. This case is the former, not the latter.
     
  16. Montresor

    Montresor Mostly Harmless Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder

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    Certainly not. You own your life and your body - that is a property right. I would say that your life and body is more important property than tangible property such as your house and your bank account but they are all yours to control.

    And in my opinion nothing can give me the right to intrude upon your property in order to publish my opinions without your consent.
     
  17. Thrasher91604

    Thrasher91604 For those who know ...

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    I wouldn't include one's life in the same category as material (or intellectual) property rights. And neither would Locke. Like Locke, I don't think property rights are equal to the right of life. He believed that rights to life and liberty were more important than property rights, and I do as well.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_and_legal_rights#John_Locke
     
  18. Montresor

    Montresor Mostly Harmless Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder

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    In that case I disagree with you and Locke on whether your life and your body are your property.

    All of which still doesn't give you the right to free speech on somebody else's property. Your rights end where the next person's rights begin.
     
  19. Thrasher91604

    Thrasher91604 For those who know ...

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    Liberty is freedom, including the freedom of free speech. And Locke held liberty above property as do I.

    It's a sad day when people think that materialistic rights are more important than rights to life and liberty.
     
  20. Montresor

    Montresor Mostly Harmless Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder

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    I think we will just have to agree to disagree on what constitutes Liberty, Property, and a "Sad day".
     
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