New Civilization IV: Beyond the Sword expansion

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Fist off some comments, then my first game.

Evidently, you are much more fortunate than I am in terms of finding horses near your start up point. In my first game, the only places where horses were located on the entire continent were way over on the other side. I was in the medieval era before I had access to horses, in which case, Immortals cease to be a very good choice.

Conversely, the Quechua, Praetorian, and now the phalanx unit (see DR's above post) have easier resource requirements. In the case of the quechua, there's no requirement, and with the phalanx, you essentially have two tries to get the resource you need. I would rush to get bronze working, and if I didn't get copper, I'd just research iron working next. It's rare to be screwed out of both copper and iron, although I have had it happen to me. To me the phalanx is potentially the best unique unit in the game now that they changed them to axemen, which is already a very powerful early game unit. Finally, with the praetorian, by the time you get to iron working, I usually have a few cities going already, so it's far less likely to be in a situation where you don't have a nearby iron resource.

I agree that if you happen to hook up horses early, then you are good to go. In such cases where you actually get horses in your capital city's radius, you can often start making immortals BEFORE your enemy even has the ability to make spearmen. In which case, yeah, they rock. I also would like to add that while horses are near useless in the modern era, they really hurt your army if you don't have access to them early on.

On that note, I think you were remiss in leaving the Keshik off ofo your list of great early rush units.

Wow! For me, archery is usually one of the first technologies I research. There are no resource requirements for archers (and later longbowmen), and the ability to get a nice defensive unit very early in the game is appealing to me. I will grant that I am typically a defensive oriented player, and usually build city walls in most of my cities (except the ones that aren't are on the front lines) to maximize the effectiveness of the archers. I also like longbowmen, but if you don't have archery you can't build them either. I also imagine you'd need archery for crossbowmen, although I admit I'm not sure about that one.

The only techs I'll go for before archery are typically animal husbandry (to find horses and because you almost always have access to some critter in your city's radius that you need to build pastures for), and any tech I'd need to access a nearby special resource (such as fishing, farming, hunting, mining, and/or masonry). Of course, it would be rare that I would need more than one or two of those techs, so archery is usually one of the first three or four techs I'd get. I'd like to hear from the others as to what they think about archers, especially if they aren't playing the Malinese or now the Babylonians where they would seem to be mandatory.

Is that a feature you have to enable on the options screen? I didn't notice it. I've only played one game, and I was the first to get code of laws and philosophy, and predictably, I got confusicanism and taoism (as the Persians).

Anyway, in my first game, I doubt I'll finish after the double cross by Gilgamesh. As I said before, I'm a defensive player, but I'm also a stingy player when it comes to building units. My front line cities usually have three units in them - archer, spearmen, and an axemen. They eventually get upgraded to longbowmen, pikeman and maceman, and eventually they are all infantry. For cities behind the front line though, I usually just keep one or at most two defensive units in them. Gilgamesh totally screwed my over after milenia of peaceful relations, taking three of my cities in one turn, all off of the front lines. I still don't know how he made that many musketmen, but he dropped off about a dozen musketmen on the doorstep of each of those three cities. Despite having infantry, when you only have one or two infantry and he has a dozen musketmen, they are going to get through eventually. Since I have superior technology I could take them back, but it just irritates me to no end when the AI does something like this - although I will admit that the AI is a heck of a lot smarter now. Perhaps I'll drop down to Warlord difficulty on my next attempt. I also have to remember to build siege units next time - that was a major delay in my first war against the Russians.

BTW, what game speed to you guys play on. I like the Marathon speed - a good balance between having units for a while and speed. Epic is a tad too slow for my liking - it just takes forever to even improve a tile.

 

I roll on normal speed. I may give marathon a try, though admittedly I never have.

Another great new option for early rushes (arguably now a contendeer for the TOP spot) are the Native Americans. Their unique unit is pretty remarkable. Not only does the Dog Soldier have 1 point of strength over the regualr Axeman it replaces, but it does NOT require any metal resources. So you could research mining and bronze working and immediately begin cranking out a very powerful early invasion force, guaranteed. I say guaranteed because personally I prefer to avoid the gamble that you'll have access to a metal that early (since I've played many games where I got screwed in this department). Then for defense, research archery and shoot for building Stonehenge - putting a free Totem Pole in every city, and making your already protective-boosted archers even better to defend against any early rushes you may provoke.

Just an observation - I've noticed that in my games, Saladin and Montezuma are ALWAYS dicks, making early tribute demands and are generally the first to start an invasion. Not sure if it's scripted this way or what, but even when I set the personalities to random this always happens. Thus, they're always the first to get trounced.

I'm looking forward to playing a full game with the Byzantines. So far I've had a good starter but didn't play long enough to get to Guilds to try out the Cataphracts.

 

I thought it was -1 strength - kind of like how the Jaguar Warrior replaces swordsmen with no metal resources, but you pay for it by getting a -1 strength. However, if you're right, that's a really powerful unit. It also would make even building a swordsman pointless for the Native Americans.

I would like to nominate Shaka for inclusion on that list.

 

I was wrong - the Dog Soldier does get a -1 to strength instead of a +1, but he gets an extra 50% against melee units (bringing the Axeman bonus to 100% vs. melee), which I would say more than makes up for it.

 

No doubt. While it is comparitively weak against cavalry and archery units (effectively a 4), it is the equivalent of macemen (effectively 8) against melee units. Well, kind of - because macemen also get +50%, meaning they're really 12 against melee. Regardless - they're really good against melee.

 

Yes, it is.

Agreed - Immortals are rubbish if you can't find horses early enough.

No, Keshiks are rightly considered to be one of the less useful unique units. Immortals and War Chariots are miles better. If you are Mongolian you are often better off just using normal units.

Two issues with this:
1) You're in trouble if anybody is attacking your cities - usually because the enemy insists on pillaging your countryside first.
2) Axemen are better city defenders than archers in virtually all circumstances (other than maybe highly promoted City Garrison archers - or if there are Chariots around).

The only time I would ever build an archer would be if I had no metal, I was playing on Raging Barbarian mode, and I needed temporary defense for a short period until I got Great Wall up.

 

I love threads like this. I don't hear that much in the Alleys...

Thanks for finding that. Will have to try that out if my current game goes poorly.

Interesting. I know the War Elephant replacement automatically seeks out mounted units first (making it useful), but requires Ivory.

I hear the "Archery sucks" arguement on the one civ site I frequent, but I've never been able to get away with skipping Archery. With my luck there will be no bronze or iron for me.

Try the Native Americans and build Stonehenge. With a totem pole and barracks in a city, the archers, longbows and crossbows have 6 exp coming out. Since they are protective, they start with CG I and Drill I free. CG III for city defence, Cover (or shock) and Drill II for anti-barbarians or pillaging. That rocks.

That's why I believe the best feature of the Mongols is the Ger. A double effect Stable, giving your War Elephants, Knights, Cuirassers and Cavalry an extra 4 exp is helpful. Now that the option I reported is not a hoax, I must try a charismatic leader (I'm thinking Cyrus) with Mongolia. Barracks, Ger, Vassalage, Throcracy and a great general settled means 13 exp for a mounted unit...

The holy city popping up on the boarder with a neighbour is incentive enough for this to occur. Their objective is that holy city and they will keep coming until they get it. Usually this happens after you have the shrine built...

If they're coming for you, then they will have chariots (and more than your spearman can skewer). If I anticipate trouble, I'd like 2 CG Archers, a Shock Axe and a Medic Spear. Also, Cover crossbows are versatile harrasser units as you get into trouble...

 

I guess my main point is that Archery is not always a good option and you should only waste time going for it if you really need it, not just as a default step.

In my games, I will usually avoid Archery, even in trades - because it still counts towards your We Fear You Are Becoming Too Advanced score.

But, as you have pointed out, the archer certainly does have a legitimate role. Sometimes you can also get mileage out of them by parking them on hills for the enemy to smash itself against. I once ended up with some really high level archers because the AI insisted on sending Chariot after Chariot against them. Although this tactic does not work as well in the Warlords expansion, where the AI is a bit smarter.

 

Main point regarding archers - while the archer itself isn't a great unit, you can't get longbowmen or crossbowmen without it, and I like both those units. When I found a new city on a new continent, I usually only have one unit sent along with the settler (because a galley only has two cargo spaces). The unit sent is usually an axe/maceman. The first thing the city builds upon being founded is either an archer/longbowman (because they aren't hooked up to the resources yet).

In my second attempt (as Darius of the Persians again) things are going much better, but that's not because I had a great starting point, but rather because I dropped the difficulty to Warlord. I am miles ahead of everyone technology wise, which is good, because in terms of strategic resources, I got a royal screwing. (Although to be fair, in terms of food and luxury resources, I think I have at least one of every kind, except gold. This also includes an instance of both marble and stone - very useful early in the game.)

However, the only strategic resource located on my starting continent was iron. No horses, no copper. No luck on the cities I founded on another continent either. I have now advanced to the industrial age, and to worsen matters, no coal, and the only oil supply is one in the ocean, meaning I won't be able to access it until I can build an offshore platform - but that requires plastics - far off in the future. So my military must consist entirely of units that require only iron as a resource. That means my current invasion is using riflemen and cannons. I'm picking on the weakest opponent in the game (Japan) because they don't even have gunpowder yet, so I can steamroll them, and hopefully, I'll get some of the other resources I require. I know they have horses somewhere as they have attacked me with knights, although admittedly at this point in the game having horses is going to be of limited use. What I really want is to find coal somewhere, as I'll need to build railroads, and finding a land-based source of oil would be nice too.

It's still unbeleivable how I have so few stategic resources though. I own the largest land area in the game, but not one instance of copper, horses, coal, and no land-based oil. What are the odds of that? I'm also somewhat amused that once again I didn't get to build Immortals.

I also have been rushing corporations in this game. I plan to get around the oil problem by building the "Standard Ethanol" corporation. I have several instances of corn and rice that I can employ.

As for the other corporations, the only other one that trades one resource for another is the Aluminum Company which converts coal into aluminum (obviously, I won't be making that one).

Most other corporations seem to be beneficial as well. Cereal Mills and Sid's Sushi provide additional food to a city. Mining gives +1 gold per resource per turn (so I don't see how that one pays for its own maintenance unless you had multiple instances of the resource within a city). Civilized Jewelers give +1 gold and a very useful +3 culture per resource per turn. Creative Constructions boost production - almost always worth the cost.

[ July 31, 2007, 14:55: Message edited by: Aldeth the Foppish Idiot ]

 

Having fun with that mixing leader and civ option. Boudica of the Romans is just wrong. Free Combat I and fast promoting Praets is just wrong! I've eliminated 2 of the 8 competitiors, and will decide who's next when I play tomorrow.

I'd like to play a game where I last long enough for corporations to come into play. Either I'm smoked or dominating by that point...

 

I can't believe it - I lost on Warlord difficulty.

Granted, this was a loss in a way I forgot about - it was through a diplomatic victory from the Apostolic Palace. Pacal II built it, and since whatever religion he was running was one which I had in virtually none of my cities, I wasn't one of the two choices, and I also only had something like 12 of the 200 or so votes available. The only thing I could do was abstain, but Pacal won a majority, and therefore, the game.

That sucks. So in other words, if I start off on an island, and I'm the only one with the religion, I can build to Apostolic Palace, and then just vote myself winner? That doesn't seem fair.

 

I've never gotten away with that, but then again, I play on Pangaea maps...

 

Aldeth, seems like your game was a prima candidate for a genocide. If anyone of the AI ever gets close to finishing the game in a peaceful way they will find their leaders executed and their population scattered over the world.

I dont have this new expansion though and it sounds like a pretty freaky way to win.

 

Since then, I read up on that wonder in the civilopedia. It works very similarly to the UN wonder, except it is the two nations with the highest population of a particular religion, rather than just the two biggest civilizations like it is with the UN. You must have a state religion declared in order to build the apostolic palace (although it doesn't matter what specific religion it is) and it is the population of people of that particular religion that is counted in determining the number of votes you get. There are many different resolutions you can declare just like with the UN, and the same option for a diplomatic victory occurs with the palace as it does with the UN. Owning the palace guarantees that you are one of the two options in the diplomatic victory vote, even if you no longer have that religion as your state religion, and even if there are two other countries in the world with that state religion that also have bigger populations of that religion than you do.

Needless to say, I am not pleased with these rules. While it is true that I could convert and declare my state religion to be whatever would match the apostolic palace (the AI frequently will convert to get a chance at being part of the diplomatic victory vote), I still wouldn't get many votes if the religion in question was not one that was founded nearby me. It's one thing to spread your own religion to other nations, but it's quite another to get religions spread to you - especially if they were founded on a different continent. Also, because I typicially go for liberalism fairly early in order to run the civics of free speech and free religion, I'm never going to maintain whatever religion it happens to be as my state religion for the long haul.

So anyway it seems like I only have three possible work arounds for this problem. 1.) Declare a state religion and build the apostolic palace myself every game. 2.) Make a rush for mass media which disables the effects of the apostolic palace. 3.) Play custom games where I set the victory conditions and uncheck the "diplomatic victory" box.

It's just irritating that you can lose due to something completely outside your control. If the religion was founded far away, you don't have it, and you're screwed. The fact that the AI was willing to pursue this victory path on "warlord" difficulty also tells me that it will become an even bigger problem on higher difficulty levels.

 

Just edited the title of the thread, so this can become the new "Civ 4 tactics" kind of thread.

Really? Wow. I never play on Pangea maps, though admittedly I don't have a good reason for it. I always play on custom continents or, my favorite, Highlands.

I shall have to give Pangea a try this evening, it would seem.

edit - Is anyone else annoyed that "The Great Plains" maps are NOT randomly generated? Such a missed opportunity. You'd think they would have fixed that in at least one of the expansions.

 

I only played that map once, so I never realized it wasn't randomly generated - it was new to me!

My favorite settings would be:

Archipelago, Low Sea Level, Tropical Climate, Snaky Continents, Small World Size (one click smaller than standard), and usually random everything else (including my civ).

Started another game last night, stupidly forgot to customize it so all victory conditions are possible. Hopefully things will go better this time, as I'll probably go ballistic if I lose consecutive games on Warlord difficulty - that would be downright embarassing.

 

One thing I've been trying for amusement is Small Pangea, 18 civs with the ability to pair any leader with any civ. I've hit on something pairing Cyrus with the Mongols. With Vassalage, State Religion, Theocracy, a GG, Barracks and a Ger that's 4 promotions on a mounted unit (right now I'm stuck with War Elephants until I knock out Shaka's capital. It's culture is blockign my access to Horses that I plowed through Ragnar's Celts and The Ethiopian guy's Koreans to take from De Gaulle's Native Americans). A Great General in a City with a Barracks in your city under Vassalage and Theocracy gives three promotions to units built there, so my throw away troops are CR III Macemen and Flanking II, Combat I, Shock War Elephants. Most civs don't get too big either, but Shaka is at 4 cities, and Justinian (German) has at least three. I built three of my own this game (and took 5 more already).

I think this will be the game where I actually get the technology to actually try out a corporation. I hear that you can spread them to your neighbours and cut their economy to crap...

 

Well, I just may have a new favorite civ. I continued playing the Holy Roman Empire last night, and they are extremely good.

The first thing to be pointed out, it's like getting a civ in which the leader has three traits instead of two. Charlemagne is Protective and Imperialistic, and he gets the bonuses you get from them as normal. However, the unique building is the Rathaus, which replaces the courthouse. The Rathaus lowers maintainence by an additional 25%, and requires 20 fewer hammers than a regular courthouse to boot. So that's a total of 75% maintenance reduction, which is exactly what you'd get if you were an organized leader (they get half maintenance as a base trait, and then they half that once they build the courthouse). You don't get the double production speed bonus for the rathaus, but since it only requires 60 instead of 80 hammers to build, it is faster than other courthouses.

The Landsknecht is the unique unit, which is a great unit, although it's period of dominance is short-lived. The landsknecht replaces the pikeman, strength 6, and gets +100% against melee units, in addition to the +100% against mounted units. At first I thought this was an improved version of the phalanx unit, but not really. What it really does is gives you macemen early. Macemen are strength 8 with a bonus of 50% against melee, while the landsknecht are 6 with a bonus of 100%.

They are a good unit, as the only thing you need to produce them is iron and engineering, meaning you can usually start fielding them before your opponent gets to either feudalism or civil service. Under these conditions, they are a very dominant unit. About the only complaint is they have a relatively short shelf life. Usually the best your opponent has to field are axemen and swordsmen, and you're definitely better than them. Anything mounted is no problem either. Stangely, the only thing you have trouble with are archers fortified behind a city wall. In taking a city I actually lost a couple to archers (I had a 44% chance of success).

Their useful service as primary offensive units comes to an end as soon as the enemy gets longbowmen. They still make excellent defensive units, and can still fulfill support roles in your advancing armies by protecting other units from knights, but at that point you really need to start building macemen to take enemy cities.

 

I'm loving that pairing any civ with any leader.

Current game is Boudica (Ag/Ch) leading the Sumerians. Free Combat I and faster promotions on Vultures is brutal. A Strength 6 axeman, and a courthouse that ytou get with Priesthood instead of CoL is nice enough, but the enhanced combat abilities means that on a small pangea with 18 civs, I start in a corner, I've knocked off three civs and am working over my fourth. Trying to run a scorched earth campaign (trash all cities and rebuild where you want) and hoping to benefit from the ruins that litter the Sumerian landscape and occasionally give a boost to hammers (then imporve them as they give the benefit). The only question is where does this combination run out of steam? I'm wondering how often I will need to take a city out of military production to build a civic improvement...

Also cool are Boudica of Rome and Cyrus of te Mongols, but they both run out of gas at some point. Rome when Macemen start to appear, and the Mongols sometime after Gunpowder...

 

You guys are making me jealous with all this Beyond the Sword talk.

But I'm not going to go and buy it until I have successfully completed my current quest for a Deity level Cultural win. I keep getting really close and then something will go wrong (usually Frederick launching his space ship in the 15th century).