1. SPS Accounts:
    Do you find yourself coming back time after time? Do you appreciate the ongoing hard work to keep this community focused and successful in its mission? Please consider supporting us by upgrading to an SPS Account. Besides the warm and fuzzy feeling that comes from supporting a good cause, you'll also get a significant number of ever-expanding perks and benefits on the site and the forums. Click here to find out more.
    Dismiss Notice
Dismiss Notice
You are currently viewing Boards o' Magick as a guest, but you can register an account here. Registration is fast, easy and free. Once registered you will have access to search the forums, create and respond to threads, PM other members, upload screenshots and access many other features unavailable to guests.

BoM cultivates a friendly and welcoming atmosphere. We have been aiming for quality over quantity with our forums from their inception, and believe that this distinction is truly tangible and valued by our members. We'd love to have you join us today!

(If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us. If you've forgotten your username or password, click here.)

More on Global Warming

Discussion in 'Alley of Dangerous Angles' started by dmc, Aug 2, 2007.

  1. Drew

    Drew Arrogant, contemptible, and obnoxious Adored Veteran

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2005
    Messages:
    3,605
    Media:
    6
    Likes Received:
    190
    Gender:
    Male
    Heh. As a parent and a night worker, sometimes things need to get done during the day which can be done no other time...and can be done by no one but me. When that happens, sometimes I simply don't get a chance to sleep. For me, that was one of those days. I end up needing to skip sleep entirely about once or twice a month, and had I another choice on such occasions, I would not do it. I'm not 18 anymore.
     
  2. AMaster Gems: 26/31
    Latest gem: Diamond


    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2000
    Messages:
    2,495
    Media:
    1
    Likes Received:
    50
    Don't try to confuse the issue with facts. Facts have no place on the internet. [/levity, we now return to your regularly scheduled thread]
     
  3. NOG (No Other Gods)

    NOG (No Other Gods) Going to church doesn't make you a Christian

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2005
    Messages:
    4,883
    Media:
    8
    Likes Received:
    148
    Gender:
    Male
    T2Bruno, most of the stuff I've seen and cited is based on erupted mass (or volume), yes, but it is still a decent way to scale from known eruptions to bigger ones like this. If eruption X released Y kg of CO2 with Z kg total erupted mass, and a supervolcano is estimated to release about 10000*Z, the CO2 released is probably somewhere in the range of 10000*Y (though, as I said, there are many other factors).
     
  4. T2Bruno

    T2Bruno The only source of knowledge is experience Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2004
    Messages:
    9,740
    Media:
    15
    Likes Received:
    436
    Gender:
    Male
    Perhaps, NOG. I think the carbon release is predominantly dependant on the geology of the area. Carbonatite magma is very rare and only occurs in pockets. The majority of volcanic activity is silica based and has relatively low carbon release.
     
  5. NOG (No Other Gods)

    NOG (No Other Gods) Going to church doesn't make you a Christian

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2005
    Messages:
    4,883
    Media:
    8
    Likes Received:
    148
    Gender:
    Male
    I don't actually think the CO2 released has all that much to do with the make-up of the melted stone. I really don't know what the process is, but I'd bet the high-carbon stones don't turn into gas. I mean, of all the elements making up the gasses released from volcanic activity, none of them are terribly common in stone: Hydrogen, Oxygen, Carbon, Sulpher, Chlorine, and Fluorine. These things are much more common in air and living creatures, maybe from melted soil from subduction zones, I don't know.

    Anyway, my point was that we could take known values from a known eruption and scale them to estimate the impact of a supervolcano, but the only real number I've been able to get is that Mt. Saint Helen's peak NON-ERUPTIVE daily output was 9.1X10^8 kg of CO2. Its eruption (which may or may not be even closely reflected by that number) was a VEI-5 event, meaning a supervolcano is about 1,000 times more powerful. From this, we can get a VERY ROUGH AND PROBABLY NOT ACCURATE estimate of somewhere in the order of 10^12 kg of CO2 for one eruption.
     
  6. T2Bruno

    T2Bruno The only source of knowledge is experience Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2004
    Messages:
    9,740
    Media:
    15
    Likes Received:
    436
    Gender:
    Male
    Ummm... all those you listed are quite common in stone.
     
  7. NOG (No Other Gods)

    NOG (No Other Gods) Going to church doesn't make you a Christian

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2005
    Messages:
    4,883
    Media:
    8
    Likes Received:
    148
    Gender:
    Male
    According to this site, oxygen is the only one that's at all common in stone (though a lot more than I thought). A link from there provides the elemental breakdown of igneous rocks (and thus non-gasseous magma) that is similar. Silicon is high on the list; iron, aluminum, calcium, sodium, potassium, and magnesium also come up as noticable amounts, but carbon, chlorine, fluorine, etc are all summed up in an 'All Others' category that composes only 1.5%. In other words, while the area and type of magma do influence the amount and composition of gasses released in an eruption, the actual composition of the melted stone doesn't.

    Breaking News: well, sort of. I just talked to my mother, a geologist, and she postulated (unconfirmed, but understandable) that the gasses released in an eruption represent the most likely chemical combinations to result in gasses under those temperatures and pressures. In other words, there isn't much carbon in the crust or mantle (in solid or liquid form) simply because the vast majority of carbon-based chemicals are either gasseous or destroyed at those temperatures and pressures.

    Anyway, that's something of a side-track of a side-track. The issue we're (or I'm) trying to settle is how much CO2 would be put out by a supervolcano, and we know the rough estimates of how much of what gasses go in magma from experimental data, so whether it makes sense for it to be there or not, it is.

    I also was recently reminded that the ocean floor includes some very large deposits of methyl hydrate, essentially methane gas frozen under cold temperatures and high pressures. Methane gas is 27 times more potent as a greenhouse gas, and these deposits can be released, either gradually or all at once, by things like underwater eruptions, earthquakes, and landslides, basically anything that has the potential to remove some large amount of that pressure. This results in the sublimation of the methyl hydrate into methane gas which bubbles up out of the ocean and into the atmosphere. We talk a lot about the impact of CO2 and its natural release into the atmosphere compared to its unnatural release, but what about methane? Is it possible that a significant amount of natural global warming could be caused by these methane releases? Remember, we know very little about the bottom of the ocean and have no effective way to track, or even really guess, how much of this is being released other than the current atmospheric reserve. Any ideas?
     
  8. AMaster Gems: 26/31
    Latest gem: Diamond


    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2000
    Messages:
    2,495
    Media:
    1
    Likes Received:
    50
  9. The Great Snook Gems: 31/31
    Latest gem: Rogue Stone


    Adored Veteran

    Joined:
    May 15, 2003
    Messages:
    4,113
    Media:
    28
    Likes Received:
    311
    Gender:
    Male
    Somehow, I'm not convinced by an article written by Greenpeace :)

    To me they just seem to be offended by Exxon spending money so that scientists who disagree with Greenpeace can continue their research. Should Exxon publish an article showing how much Greenpeace sends to scientists who agree with Greenpeace's article?
     
  10. AMaster Gems: 26/31
    Latest gem: Diamond


    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2000
    Messages:
    2,495
    Media:
    1
    Likes Received:
    50
    So you're not convinced by the Royal Society either, I take it? Do you attribute the same motivation to them that you do to Greenpeace?
     
  11. The Great Snook Gems: 31/31
    Latest gem: Rogue Stone


    Adored Veteran

    Joined:
    May 15, 2003
    Messages:
    4,113
    Media:
    28
    Likes Received:
    311
    Gender:
    Male
    I'm not sure as to who this "Royal Society" you talk about is. But, if they are a group of scientists, then they are one side of the argument and I'm at least willing to give them a listen to. If on the other hand, they are yet another "group with a vested interest" like Greenpeace or Exxon then no, I would lump them in with the others.
     
  12. AMaster Gems: 26/31
    Latest gem: Diamond


    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2000
    Messages:
    2,495
    Media:
    1
    Likes Received:
    50
    Ah. I'd assumed you'd at least glanced at the paper you reject. My mistake. Try this.

    I must confess, I do find the notion that Greenpeace and Exxon are equivalent to be amusing
     
  13. The Great Snook Gems: 31/31
    Latest gem: Rogue Stone


    Adored Veteran

    Joined:
    May 15, 2003
    Messages:
    4,113
    Media:
    28
    Likes Received:
    311
    Gender:
    Male
    Well they are clearly two sides of the same coin. For all of Greenpeace's supposedly altruistic goals, they are like a business. Instead of selling gasoline, they publicize environmental concerns and hope for donations. The more sensational they can make their "advertising" the more they can make.


    EDIT:

    I had a chance to look at your link. They should be ashamed of themselves. Just like Greenpeace, they feel Exxon should stop funding scientific research, because it disagrees with them. This coming from scientists is reprehensible. Can you imagine the howls of outrage if Exxon had manage to convince the Society's funding to dry up? I get it that the Society believes they are right and that debate should stop, but not everyone feels that way (no matter how many times they try to say it)
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2007
  14. AMaster Gems: 26/31
    Latest gem: Diamond


    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2000
    Messages:
    2,495
    Media:
    1
    Likes Received:
    50
    You rather miss the point. The society doesn't want Exxon to 'stop funding scientific research'. They want Exxon to stop funding groups which have 'misrepresented the science of climate change by outright denial of the evidence"

    Which isn't the same thing at all. But then, I suppose this goes back to the conspiracy thing, and I should have known better.
     
  15. The Great Snook Gems: 31/31
    Latest gem: Rogue Stone


    Adored Veteran

    Joined:
    May 15, 2003
    Messages:
    4,113
    Media:
    28
    Likes Received:
    311
    Gender:
    Male
    See I think it is the same thing. This Society claims they are right and the people who disagree with them are "misrepresenting the science by denying the evidence." Another interpretation (and the way I look at it) is that these other groups look at the same evidence (or other evidence) and have come up with a different conclusion which the society doesn't like. This isn't like addition in which 2+3=5, this is using very complicated computer models and data from many souces and the more you read about this issue the more you come to realize that there have been problems with all of the computer models and a lot of the data is in question.
     
  16. The Great Snook Gems: 31/31
    Latest gem: Rogue Stone


    Adored Veteran

    Joined:
    May 15, 2003
    Messages:
    4,113
    Media:
    28
    Likes Received:
    311
    Gender:
    Male
    This is a pretty big Necro and I'm sure most of the people I used to spar about concerning this are long gone from this board, but every once in a while I like to come back and remind everyone about the imminent danger :D

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 20, 2015
  17. Drew

    Drew Arrogant, contemptible, and obnoxious Adored Veteran

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2005
    Messages:
    3,605
    Media:
    6
    Likes Received:
    190
    Gender:
    Male
    You realize you are about a year and a half late on this meme, and that it has already been debunked, right? Gore has had occasion to overstate the case for global warming, but he never said that. When accusing Gore of being a shrill alarmist who plays fast and loose with the facts, you should at least cite your ****ing sources.

     
  18. pplr Gems: 18/31
    Latest gem: Horn Coral


    Veteran

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2008
    Messages:
    1,029
    Media:
    2
    Likes Received:
    33
    What "that"?

    Haven't gone through the thread and won't have to time today. I noticed the first comment was about Greenland.

    As it is Greenland still has ice but more of it has been melting during annual melting periods than in prior years.

    http://nsidc.org/greenland-today/

    "Comparing the seasonal progression of the four most recent years, the recent tendency for greater-than-average melt extent is apparent, as are the rapid variations in melt extent mid-year. The melt season of 2014 had a series of moderately extensive melt events early on, but did not undergo the expansive areas of surface melt on the high parts of the ice sheet as in 2012.

    Relative to the 35 years of continuous satellite measurements, 2014 is tied with 2006 for seventh highest, and is well above the 1981 to 2010 average. Melt area total (the sum of daily melt extents for the entire June through August period) was approximately 100,000 square kilometers (38,600 square miles) above the 1981 to 2010 average. The top eight melt extent years have all occurred since 2002."

    Greenland still has ice, but less than average.
     
  19. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

    Joined:
    May 15, 2003
    Messages:
    12,434
    Media:
    46
    Likes Received:
    249
    Gender:
    Male
    And the point of all of this is ... What? It's not like you can point at Greenland and say "look - it still has ice" and thus conclude the "myth" of global warming has been thoroughly busted.

    I also got a kick out of a congressman a couple of weeks ago who walked on to the floor of congress with a snowball to "prove" global warming wasn't happening. As if a cold snap can disprove GW any more than a heat wave can prove it
     
  20. T2Bruno

    T2Bruno The only source of knowledge is experience Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2004
    Messages:
    9,740
    Media:
    15
    Likes Received:
    436
    Gender:
    Male
    I have an icemaker ... ice ... get it ICE ... right in my own kitchen! NFW there's any global warming if I can make ice in my kitchen!

    The climate is always changing ... it's either warming or cooling (I guess for brief times in history it was on a plateau or in a valley and not changing much). Warming could be caused by natural cycles -- I don't believe that has been examined or even if it can be quantified. But ultimately if we're the load or the final straw does it really matter?

    Forty years ago the US embarked on a journey to save the ozone -- and it worked. I think the same effort into climate change would be beneficial.
     
Sorcerer's Place is a project run entirely by fans and for fans. Maintaining Sorcerer's Place and a stable environment for all our hosted sites requires a substantial amount of our time and funds on a regular basis, so please consider supporting us to keep the site up & running smoothly. Thank you!

Sorcerers.net is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to products on amazon.com, amazon.ca and amazon.co.uk. Amazon and the Amazon logo are trademarks of Amazon.com, Inc. or its affiliates.