Monks vs Paladins

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Well I think the class/race with the best roll minimum overall the Half-Elf R/C which is something like

14
14
11
13
12
10

Or something along those lines this is just a very rough idea of what I remember it as.
And about Paladins I'm guessing some Race/Class combo's can go higher then other's because I've never had a point roll that high with any of the numerous classes that I have tried including the himan Fighter with some of the lowest minimum's around.

EDIT: I'm only comparing the NORMAL Paladin with the Monk NOT the kits.

 

The standard paladin loses a bit of his charm compared to the kits. I think most people have played one of the kits rather than vanilla.

Paladins don't have the highest minimum rolls, rangers beat them to that by 3 points with a minimum sum total of 60 while paladins have only 57

My best roll has been 99 total and it was a ranger.

 

My Paladin got 49 points to distribute among the minimum's but I got rid of him and now I can't seem to get it back again.

And it seem's with Paladins you need to spend AGES rolling to get enough points for a high enough score in a roll play sense, since all classes and kit's simplified are
Fighter - the Paladin class
Theif
Mage
Cleric

Since fighters normally have str, dex and con in the high teen's and Paladins have a cha min of 17 and a wis min of 13 I can't imagine realistically a Paladin having a int of below 10 given the other stat requirements.

 

Minimum rolls for a Paladin is 57, as said earlier by Chevalier. This means you had you had a total stat count of 106 (57+49), out of a possible 108. No wonder you can't get it back it again I've never seen anyone get a stat roll that high before without cheating, you must have been rolling quite some time. The highest i've achieved is 98 with a blade.

 

You list "Must be human" as a drawback to the Paladin class, while Monks suffer the same restriction.

You also list "Must be Lawful Good" for the Paladin, while failing to mention that Monks "Must be Lawful."

 

A naked monk would murder a naked Paladin anyday anytime. The End.

If we allow "the paladin with every item under the sun" then we must do the same for a monk.

Pure vanilla, the monk wins hands down, no more paladin.

But who cares, they are not meant to be the same let alone equal...

 

Monks are dangerously overpowered in my opinion, especially with that quivering palm, which i think has been toned down for 3rd edition d&d games, its more like the HLA deathblow in nwn.

 

I copied this from a character faq guide for the purposes of this topic.

Same as above, and what's alingment got to do with how powerful a character is?

If you are into Monk's try the oversight mod it comes with the option to change their HLA's from the fighter class to their own Monk class which makes them a hell of a lot more powerful the Paladins since your HLA's are the sam as the ToB NPC Monks like Balthazar here's a list of the HLA's and affects

In unmodded Throne of Bhaal, monks have access to the same pool of High Level Abilities as fighters. This seems lame. This component will give monks their own set of High Level Abilities instead, most of which should be quite familiar to anyone who has played through Throne of Bhaal before.
Shadowless Kick
This kick throws the target back, knocks the target unconscious, and deals 4d8 points of damage.
Tiger Strike
A more powerful form of Shadowless Kick, this power ensures every blow for the next round is a critical hit. In addition, every blow for the next two rounds throws the target back and knocks the target unconscious.
Prerequisite: Shadowless Kick.
Dragon Fist
With a blow, the monk strips away the magical protections of the target.
Faster Than The Eye
By concentrating briefly on another area within 4000 feet, the monk can instantly transport herself there.
Prerequisite: Feet of the Wind.
Flip Resistances
The monk's magic resistance converts into physical damage resistance for a number of rounds equal to twice the monk's level. The monk also becomes immune to backstab for the same duration.
Solar Stance
Anyone near the monk--friend or foe alike--is blown back, burned, and affected by Glitterdust and Greater Malison when the monk assumes this stance.
Prerequisite: Tiger Strike.
Lunar Stance
A monk who strikes this stance gains a +5 bonus to Saving Throws vs. Death, a +2 bonus to luck, and becomes immune to Slay, Imprisonment, Petrification, Level Drain, Disintegrate, and Time Stop. The duration of this power is four rounds.
Prerequisite: Solar Stance.
Shadow Stance
This stance causes the monk to instantly become both invisible, as per the spell Improved Invisibility, and immune to divination spells such as True Seeing. This power lasts for 23 rounds.
Prerequisite: Lunar Stance.
Feet of the Wind
Each time this ability is chosen, it greatly and permanently increases the monk's movement rate.
Second Wind
By concentrating briefly, the monk can shrug off even the worst of wounds, once per day. The effect of this power is to fully heal the monk instantly.
Prerequisite: Flip Resistances.
Stunning Blow
The monk has one more use of the Stunning Blow ability per day.
Quivering Palm
The monk has one more use of the Quivering Palm ability per day.

All of these HLA's especially Flip resistances, Solar and Lunar stances are so overpowered.

 

thanks casey, but i think i will go without it. Like you said some of them are way overpowered, and will probably just make the game less fun.

 

Shouldn't the topic be Monk vs. Cavalier... Because the Cavalier is an upgrade of the Paladin. A very good upgrade. So the Paladin is a class without much reason...

Yeah, but you get it at Throne of Bhaal, when you have washed Bodhi through Athcathla... So you don't really need so much the Amulet after SoA...

 

I thought we was talking about paladins in general, and their kits. Cavalier is just not upgrade, it still has 1 drawback, it cannot use missle weapons. You laugh now, but there is always that moment when you need to fire an arrow or 2 instead of using your sword.

i.e Trolls, unless you sword can do fire or acid damage, a troll will not die. Luckily fire arrows come in vast supply. If your a cavalier you'll be abit stuck without the use of a bow, although you should have other party members who can do some sort of fire or acid damage.

 

Is there any paticular reason why a Cavalier can not use missle weapons in a role play sense or is that for balance?

"Missle weapons" are bows, xbows and slings, there are still darts daggers and axes for the Cavalier.

IMO as far as the Inquisitor goes, is that he's a good mage killer, no, a great mage killer, but he does not get cleric spells, and while this is not as powerful as a proper cleric, the paladins spells and lay on hands ability are what gives him the edge over the Inquisitor so therefore I think any paladin or cavalier would beat the inquisitor, and don't forget even if the inquisitor dispels his spels there is still lay on hands for up to 80 HP.

 

When was the last time your solo paladin killed a dragon with one hit????

 

I'm pretty sure that a Paladin has good enough saving throws vs death to not be affected by quivering palm (+2 on creation, +6 on Ring of Gaxx, Ring of protection, Helm of Balduran, necklace of protection, and finally the +2 in the hell trials. that's a +10 bonus! I've killed Dragons with a finger of death with only one greater Malison (no dooms or chants) so I think the paladin would survive.

And besides this is about who's best overall and Quivering palm is only a one use per day ability while the Cavalier has Lay on hands with his spells.

Edit: @ ShadowSteel. Where did I say anything about solo?

 

The time the Paladin was using the Vorpal Sword.

If the classes must clash, I'd advise to keep on the figures. There's no point in having these two go one on one, because item-wise the favor will always be on the Paladin, and itemless it will always be on the Monk.

 

... Or axe of Unyeilding, or Ravager.

when was the last time the Monk used these hmm?

so this would mean the Paladin is better with his items which he is always using.

Ok then what about one on one as Wizard Slayers? the Monk at lv 40 and the right Items can have his MR Maxed out but an Inquisitor has Items and his Dispel magic and TrueSight to use but can only bring his total to 90% if playing as the Protagonist.
50% from Carsomyr
10% from Ring of Gaxx
10% from Amulet of seldarine
10% from hell trials
5% from the machine of LtM
5% from Ednikus Full plate

total=90%

so thats still a 10 percent chance that the Inquisitor will be affected while the monk's above and beyond 100% with no way of brining down defences.

[ December 28, 2003, 16:59: Message edited by: casey ]

 

I think you may have the MR incorrect. I believe that Carsomyr is supposed to set your MR to 50 and doesn't add 50. So, if you have 30 and add Carsomyr it becomes 50. If you have 80 and add Carsomyr you get 50. At least, that's what I recall but I could be wrong. However, there is a way of adding items in such a way that Carsomyr's bonus is additive but this is a bug/exploit/inconsistent with the description or whatever term is correct for, 'ain't right.'

On the other hand, the Purifier adds 30 MR...

 

Not exactly. The Monk's item restrictions rounded off by an overpowered Paladin-only item gives the class a distinct disadvantage when wielding items. There's also the fact that Monk class bonuses are both good and bad.

Carsomyr sets MR to 50, but this doesn't really matter since both classes can have ridiculously low saves and can use the Cloak of Cheese. (ie Cloak of Mirroring)

 

And why shouldent it be legit? if someone holds the carsomyr before putting on a few extra Items then I see no reason why it should not be justifiable in a real sense, it would be easy enough to achive, you equip the sword put on a ring and an amulet and your done.

if we are talking high level then I don't think Cloak of mirrioring is the be all and end all the mage still has spell Immunitys and ways of avoiding damage and been visible altogether while summoning Plantars and mordenkainens swords. I'd go on but it's late so I think I'll just go to bed, so goodnight

 

Is anyone else getting sick of these "Items vs. a Class" debates?

How about this for an idea? Play the class that you find the most fun and not care whether it's the most powerful or not.

I'm willing to bet that my monk with the Cloak of Death (100% Immunity to +15 Weapons and Lower, 100% Magic Resistance, and Immunity to Timestop and Imprisonment 1/day kill all paladins within a 50 mile radius) would beat up your paladin.

A well played monk could probably beat the paladin, regardless of items but a lot has to do with the players' skill. If both simply stand still and fight, the paladin will win every time.