1. SPS Accounts:
    Do you find yourself coming back time after time? Do you appreciate the ongoing hard work to keep this community focused and successful in its mission? Please consider supporting us by upgrading to an SPS Account. Besides the warm and fuzzy feeling that comes from supporting a good cause, you'll also get a significant number of ever-expanding perks and benefits on the site and the forums. Click here to find out more.
    Dismiss Notice
Dismiss Notice
You are currently viewing Boards o' Magick as a guest, but you can register an account here. Registration is fast, easy and free. Once registered you will have access to search the forums, create and respond to threads, PM other members, upload screenshots and access many other features unavailable to guests.

BoM cultivates a friendly and welcoming atmosphere. We have been aiming for quality over quantity with our forums from their inception, and believe that this distinction is truly tangible and valued by our members. We'd love to have you join us today!

(If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us. If you've forgotten your username or password, click here.)

Milosevic Dies

Discussion in 'Alley of Lingering Sighs' started by Taluntain, Mar 11, 2006.

Page 2 of 2
  1. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

    Joined:
    May 15, 2003
    Messages:
    12,434
    Media:
    46
    Likes Received:
    250
    Gender:
    Male
    Remove all ads!
    But if the trial had concluded, and he had been found guilty, wouldn't he go down in Serbian consciousness as a great patriotic leader who was falsely accused of crimes he never commited, was given a show trial, and railroaded into a verdict, who in the end died as a prisoner of the Western governments? And that is a far cry from what has happened now? I agree that he will become a martyr for this, but I think that would have happened regardless.
     
    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot, Mar 13, 2006
    #21

  2. Pac man Gems: 25/31
    Latest gem: Moonbar

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2002
    Messages:
    2,119
    Likes Received:
    1
    Excuse me, but you have us mixed up with Denmark, there's a slight difference between the two. Seems you have some targetting problems of your own.
     
    Pac man, Mar 13, 2006
    #22
  3. Felinoid

    Felinoid Who did the what now?

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2005
    Messages:
    7,470
    Likes Received:
    6
    Gender:
    Male
    :o My apologies. I guess it's been long enough that I forgot the specifics (I've got a lot going on in RL too). My point still stands, though, that just because one party is 'guilty' doesn't mean a more convenient scapegoat will take the brunt of the punishment.
     
    Felinoid, Mar 13, 2006
    #23

  4. Mithrantir Gems: 15/31
    Latest gem: Waterstar

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2003
    Messages:
    710
    Likes Received:
    0
    I partly disagree with this.
    I have a Serbian friend and when we asked him how he feels about Milosevic death, he just compared Milosevic to a cockroach that someone told him it died in his house.

    His followers would make him a martyr either way. Should he was found guilty or not. But his followers are not as many as they used to be when he was free. And furthermore the feeling i got from my friend is that many Serbians believe he is the main reason they got all these misfortunes and troubles for their country.

    I believe that in about three months he will just another historical figure with just some extremist believers of his politics, people that in a couple of years will be characterized as graphical. Like Hitler
     
    Mithrantir, Mar 14, 2006
    #24
  5. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2000
    Messages:
    23,665
    Media:
    494
    Likes Received:
    574
    Gender:
    Male
    [​IMG] Aldeth, as I said, it would have happened anyway, but with no conviction, it just makes it that much easier to deny that he's ever done anything wrong. And all his victims and survivors would have certainly preferred him being found guilty and spending the rest of his life rotting in prison in good health, don't you think? Death was the easiest way out for him. If he was in prison for another 10-15 years before dying, he'd have been a constant reminder to Serbia. With his sudden death, he'll quickly become a martyr, and in a few years Serbia will elect a new face with all the same convictions and ideas that Milosevic has had.

    Mithrantir, people who don't support Milosevic and his ideas and ideals are a distinct minority in Serbia today. He actually has just as many, if not more followers today than he had when they shipped him off to Hague. Because the Serbians at the time didn't turn him in because they'd disagree with his views, but because all in all, he's lost 4 wars that he started and cost Serbia much more than they've gained. But don't mistake his extradition with a change in the majority Serbian mindset. Serbia today is run by criminals and ultranationalists who have assassinated all of the remotely democratic leaders who could have opposed them and brought some semblance of a modern, democratic, Europe-centered vision to Serbia.

    True enough that many Serbians blame Milosevic, but not because of what he's done - but because he's lost all the battles and cost them so much. You have to keep in mind that he was their democratically elected leader (always with a considerable majority of votes). His only mistake in the eyes of the majority in Serbia is that he's let them down.
     
    Taluntain, Mar 14, 2006
    #25
  6. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

    Joined:
    May 15, 2003
    Messages:
    12,434
    Media:
    46
    Likes Received:
    250
    Gender:
    Male
    Tal,

    So you're saying you would like them to continue the trial, even though Milosevic is dead? Kind of like in abstentia - although not really - that's if someone isn't present for the trial, not if he's dead. Is there any provision for this? If all you're saying is true - and you seem to be far more knowledgable about how Serbia feels about this guy than I am - then isn't it also reasonable to assume that other people have thought about this too?

    Or is it simply that the Hague has no provisions for dealing with someone who dies prior to/during the trial? I suppose that would make sense, as he is beyond any punishment anyone could inflict upon him at this point. Still, if things are as bad as you describe, it would seem like on principle alone the trial could be brought to a conclusion.
     
    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot, Mar 14, 2006
    #26

  7. NonSequitur Gems: 19/31
    Latest gem: Aquamarine

    Joined:
    May 27, 2004
    Messages:
    1,152
    Likes Received:
    0
    Aldeth, I think that continuing the trial in absentia is going to be quite complicated, given that Milosevic insisted on representing himself. A new legal team would need to be appointed for Milosevic, and the process would drag on considerably.

    Still, I think it's preferable to allowing Milosevic to cheat justice for martyrdom.

    EDIT: An article from today's Age, for people's consideration.

    [ March 14, 2006, 23:43: Message edited by: NonSequitur ]
     
    NonSequitur, Mar 14, 2006
    #27

  8. Pac man Gems: 25/31
    Latest gem: Moonbar

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2002
    Messages:
    2,119
    Likes Received:
    1
    I think maybe it's best they'd drop the Milosevic case, and work a little harder on the arrest of those scumbags Mladic and Karadzic.
     
    Pac man, Mar 15, 2006
    #28
  9. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2000
    Messages:
    23,665
    Media:
    494
    Likes Received:
    574
    Gender:
    Male
    As far as I know, a trial in absentia (let alone post-death) is not possible at The Hague - they have a set requirement that every war criminal has to be there in order to be tried. I agree that even such a trial would have been preferrable to a non-concluded one at this point, though.

    As for being knowledgeable about Serbia, I live in the neighbourhood, so the whole debate is very close to home for me, and the situation in Serbia is getting regular media coverage here, so we're able to track the developments there very well.
     
    Taluntain, Mar 15, 2006
    #29
  10. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

    Joined:
    May 15, 2003
    Messages:
    12,434
    Media:
    46
    Likes Received:
    250
    Gender:
    Male
    It's really sad how little coverage the former Yugoslavia gets in the U.S. press. Basically, as soon as UN combat operations came to a halt, they stopped talking about it.

    I couldn't even tell you how many countries they cut up the former Yugoslavia into. I know of Croatia, Serbia, and some odd country called Bosnia-Herzogovenia - which sounds like two countries and not one - which is really strange considering that's the exact thing that caused the problems in Yugoslavia to begin with. I also heard about an area called Montenegro, although AFAIK, that isn't an independent nation, although I could be wrong.
     
    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot, Mar 15, 2006
    #30
  11. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2000
    Messages:
    23,665
    Media:
    494
    Likes Received:
    574
    Gender:
    Male
    Those are all separate countries that have existed before in Yugoslavia as well (along with Slovenia and Macedonia). Yugoslavia was just a broad term for the federation (same as the United States). The ambiguity comes from the fact that the name "Yugoslavia" has been used three times in history to denote different unions of different countries... You can get some basic info about it all at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugoslavia

    Bosnia and Herzegovina was originally one country (it's been broken into several separate areas according to the majority ethnicity during the wars), and Montenegro is officially still a part of Serbia, but will sooner or later go independent (which is likely to cause another bloody war).
     
    Taluntain, Mar 15, 2006
    #31
  12. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

    Joined:
    May 15, 2003
    Messages:
    12,434
    Media:
    46
    Likes Received:
    250
    Gender:
    Male
    Whoops! Forgot about Slovenia and Macedonia, but yeah, I heard of them too. I was under the impression that the countries as they currently exist approximate what they looked like (in terms of borders and names) in the WWI era.
     
    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot, Mar 15, 2006
    #32
  13. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2000
    Messages:
    23,665
    Media:
    494
    Likes Received:
    574
    Gender:
    Male
    Actually, the official borders are the same as they've been at the moment of Yugoslavia's break-up. Same with names.
     
    Taluntain, Mar 16, 2006
    #33

  14. The Shaman Gems: 28/31
    Latest gem: Star Sapphire

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2004
    Messages:
    2,831
    Likes Received:
    54
    True, except for the controversy about Macedonia's proper name. Parts of the geo-historical region Macedonia are in nowaday Greece and Bulgaria.
    By the way, the name Yugoslavia is terribly ambiguous. Literally, it would mean something along the lines of "Land of the Southern Slavs," although not all of the people of ex-Yugoslavia are Slavic nor are all southern Slavs part of the federation. I suppose it may sound confusing... sorry people, Balkan history.
     
    The Shaman, Mar 16, 2006
    #34
Page 2 of 2
Sorcerer's Place is a project run entirely by fans and for fans. Maintaining Sorcerer's Place and a stable environment for all our hosted sites requires a substantial amount of our time and funds on a regular basis, so please consider supporting us to keep the site up & running smoothly. Thank you!

Sorcerers.net is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to products on amazon.com, amazon.ca and amazon.co.uk. Amazon and the Amazon logo are trademarks of Amazon.com, Inc. or its affiliates.