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Michael Moore says Money of the Rich isn't theirs

Discussion in 'Alley of Lingering Sighs' started by NOG (No Other Gods), Mar 4, 2011.

  1. NOG (No Other Gods)

    NOG (No Other Gods) Going to church doesn't make you a Christian

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    And neither are the jobs they provide, apparently. Of course, many of us already knew he thinks this. This is a cornerstone of the liberal world-view. This is, however, a prime example of an influential star of the liberal left in America out-and-out admitting he's a socialist.

    To be clear, that's what he's talking about: the public or common ownership and cooperative management of the means of production and allocation of resources. He goes one step further, though, (possibly, or maybe it's included) and essentially says that it is your right as an American citizen to be payed by someone wealthy to do something.

    Me, I'm just wondering when he'll pony up his share. I could use a piece of that money. :rolleyes:
     
  2. joacqin

    joacqin Confused Jerk Veteran

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    And?
     
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  3. Aikanaro Gems: 31/31
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    I see nothing wrong with this.
     
  4. The Great Snook Gems: 31/31
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    You will have to forgive my crankiness. I'm on the back end of a 70+ hour work week (with 7 more weeks to go) and **** like this just totally pisses me off. I studied my ass off when I was in college. While I did that I worked part time jobs 30-40 hours per week to raise the money to pay for my tuition. When I graduated I landed a good job. Over the years I have continued to educate myself and have changed jobs when necessary to put my self in better situations with better pay. Now this fat piece of **** has the nerve to imply that I have some sort of obligation as an American citizen to support other people with the money I work so God dam hard for. Well in the words of Cee Lo Green all I can say with massive capital letters is **** YOU and **** the horse you rode in on too. If he wants to give up all of his money, let him. Hopefully, he can convince all of his liberal friends to do the same thing. It is attitudes like that that will ****ing destroy this country. What has made us what we are is capitalism and the will and drive to succeed. The former soviet union was a classic case, when there was no incentives for people to anything they didn't. I would love to stay home all day and be with my wife and son. I would love to be able to stay home all day and play on the computer, watch tv, and read. But, I can't because I have a family that depends on me and if I don't provide for it, we don't have ****. The biggest thing this country and society has done to poison itself is we got rid of the concept of shame. Our grandparent's generation and before would have been ****ing embarrassed to sit around all day and live off of the teat of the government. Think back to the pictures of the depression, people who didn't have jobs still dressed in suits, ties, and hats and went looking for work. Now people lose their job and their first thought is whoo hoo, I should be able to get at least 20-30 weeks of unemployment. I'll work on my ****ing tan. When my cousin's husband was arrested and sent to prison for 50-100 years she was left with a three year old and was eight months pregnant. Did she go on welfare? No, the family rounded up the wagons and helped her out until she could get on her feet. It took a couple of years, but now her oldest is in school, the baby starts kindergarten in the fall, she has a nice apartment, a job and is supporting herself. She didn't need some fat **** insisting the rest of the country support her, her family did it. My aunt would have died before she let her go on welfare. There is a little thing called pride people and without it you will never amount to ****.
     
  5. Rotku

    Rotku I believe I can fly Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    A small, two paragraph quote and the guy becomes one of those bloody socialists? A couple of decades ago and you would have accused him of waving a red flag around and chanting Stalin's name.

    The vast majority of what he says is true. If you see the rest of the interview, it's all about the budget slashing and union attacking that the Republicans are currently doing. He's pointing out that the poor are already suffering much more than the rich, so it's from the rich that the extra money should be coming from. Instead of slashing the unions, public sector workers and so forth - attacking the lower and lower-middle class, who have worked equally as hard to get where they are - the state governments should be looking at increasing the taxes of the upper classes.

    There's nothing really radical in this statement. And it's not at all surprising coming from Moore. It's no more surprising than hearing Palin say she is against gun control or Beck saying he believes in god.

    Snook: There is nothing wrong with accepting help when you are down. There's pride and then there's stupidity. What if your cousin didn't have such a supportive family? Would you prefer that she let the children suffer just so she could keep a job? What a way to bring up a strong future generation! I'd prefer that she sought some assistance - maybe working 20 hours a week, instead of a fully 40 - until the kids had grown up a few years and didn't need mum around quite so much.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2011
  6. joacqin

    joacqin Confused Jerk Veteran

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    If the US were more socialistic Snook you could spend some more time with your family, wouldn't that ne nice?
     
  7. 8people

    8people 8 is just another way of looking at infinite ★ SPS Account Holder Veteran

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    [​IMG] Snook, I must admit I resent the implication that I have no pride and that my partner and I should feel shame for trying to make use of the means available to us to pay our rent. Our families aren't as fortunate as yours to be able to support us during our worst.

    I am studying at university to ensure I get a job in the future, I get a student loan and disabled students allowance - should I be ashamed of that? Should I be ashamed that there are resources set aside to help me study when most of the time the software and resources I require are difficult to even find existance of? I am unemployed but I make what I can through eBay currently to pay for the extra electricity and to make sure I have enough food in.

    My other half had to leave his work in April and a three month job over Summer he wasn't paid by the company at all. From August to February he was looking for jobs day and night. Should we be ashamed that we got Job Seekers Allowance? An allowance that didn't even cover the rent. We were forced to borrow money from our families - which I feel more shame for than *any* government funded service.

    I had to borrow money from a woman in an already financially draining relationship and a recent widow to cover my rent because the government here has decided to treat people on benefits like criminals - because being disabled and unable to find work wasn't difficult enough! The government here in england has turned around and BLAMED people on Disability Living Allowance for the financial situation in england by labelling us all as FRAUDS

    We are fortunate that we were able to cover the rent to stop us being evicted, a process started last month because we missed three months rent at one point. We were even more fortunate when Kev got a job and is now having to travel for (Though will be refunded by the company as it's until he gets his proper placement) and that the previous company he worked for have agreed to pay £1,400 of the £4,000 they owe us (Though I will believe it when I see it).

    Don't you tell me I will never amount to **** because I have had to rely on benefits when things have been tough. Don't you act like suffering unemployment is WORTH the scraps they give you to live on and don't you shame people for being in a **** situation.

    I have pride in the fact that I have been able to continue my studies. I have pride in the fact that my partner and I have got through a HELL of a year and are still together. I have pride in the fact I was able to navigate the ridiculous paperwork designed to confuse you. I have pride in the fact I have a man who worked like hell to get a job. I have pride that we had faith in each other when a large corporation had Kev arrested! (See the £4k above). I have pride I've got through the whole mess with some of my sanity still in tact, to be honest! :lol: And trust me, I've been on the wrong medication since September - it's been a damn close call.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2011
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  8. Ragusa

    Ragusa Eternal Halfling Paladin Veteran

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    Odds were then also that he would get his probably inevitable heart attack a couple years later. For my dad bypasses gave him ten extra years, what a gift, but he still died two years before retirement. 70 hour work weeks sound much like him.

    Fun part: He was working at the state tax office, and he was a tenured public employee.
     
  9. Aikanaro Gems: 31/31
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    Snook: If I respected your opinion at all I would be offended.

    But, y'know - whatever. Go ahead and live the American Dream, I guess - hope you're finding some satisfaction in it. Personally I'm going to leech off the government for another month before heading off to do something that truly excites me - and yes, I think I'll amount to something pretty good. And when I get back to Australia, work, and pay tax - I'll be happy knowing that some of it is going to helping people and making life easier for the next generation than it was for my parent's and grandparent's.

    I don't understand why people believe that hard work is such a grand thing. My ideal would be a world where everyone lives comfortably and works only to do things that fulfil them when they want to. I find it hard to understand the ideal where everyone has their nose to the grindstone to bitterly claw their way to the top. Sure, I can understand that it might be a practical solution sometimes (especially given the current economic system and whatnot), but I don't see why you would wish that on anyone except out of bitterness. 'I did it so everyone else should have to suffer like I did!'

    ... not that this thread is actually about that, but I guess that's a lot of the attitude that makes people scream about the socialists coming to steal their money - it's what I get from your post, anyway.

    Meh - different value systems, I guess. I'm glad that I will never be like you. I'm really, deeply glad that I was born in this country and not one with attitudes and culture like that. If my country was as 'great' as yours life wouldn't be anywhere near as good.
     
  10. Incarnate Gems: 5/31
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    Its not the work its the knowledge that you make it on your own and its not just work is in everyday life people get used to being helped in all things and having stuff handed to them on a plate .
     
  11. LKD Gems: 31/31
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    [​IMG] There's a big difference between "taking help when you need it" and being a filthy leech on society, expecting others to provide and not making any bloody effort at all to help yourself or contribute to society. Snook is correct in that we have far too many leeches with a sense of entitlement.

    However, if MM is saying that the middle and lower classes are already paying too much tax, that's an opinion I can respect. I don't know enough stats to form an opinion on the matter, but speaking as a middle class person I can say that I feel I pay too much and the $ either goes to rich fat cats or to worthless lazy welfare leeches ( and let me be clear I'm not talking about all welfare recipients but the ones who CAN work but choose not to)

    MY ideal world involves people taking responsibility for themselves and helping those who are actually in trouble until they cam get on their feet. Freeloaders don't have any place in that world.
     
  12. NOG (No Other Gods)

    NOG (No Other Gods) Going to church doesn't make you a Christian

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    When he out-and-out claims that the common working man has a right to demand jobs from the rich, that the rich are stealing from the American people by moving their jobs overseas, yes.

    The overall idea I agree with. I don't think we should actually raise taxes on the right so much as just impliment a consumption-based tax, but it's a similar idea. It's the reasoning behind it that is an actual example of socialism.

    I know that, but the Left always cries foul when the Right accuses them of socialism, and here is a prime example of one of them (and a leading, influential member) actually employing it. My point is that socialism isn't a boogeyman the Right made up. It's an actual ideal still held by many on the Left.

    Rotku, while the short-term reasoning sounds very nice, the reality of implimentation has never worked in the US. I suggest you look up a documentary called Good Intentions hosted by Walter Williams for a look at what happened. And then realize that it wasn't made in 2005, but in 1985.

    You, 8people, are one of the examples of how people should respond to it. In all of it, you and your husband are still trying to pay your own way as much as possible, and you're trying to get a better future. Maybe that's because of shame, maybe it's because of the piss-poor living conditions you have to deal with now, maybe it's because of ambition for a better future. In the US today, though, many people have learned to live on welfare as a way of life. Able-bodied Americans (and I've heard similar stories from the UK) are finding benefits and welfare pay better than the work they can find. Of course, this means they never get any work experience, never establish themselves as a reliable worker, which means they can't find better work, which means welfare and benefits continue to pay better. There are whole societies in the US who are so dependent, and the Democrats typically want to expand these programs. It is those people that the shame of living on benefits used to motivate to find work.

    I think that if you could actually see such a society, you'd consider it more of a nightmare than an ideal. Most people wouldn't be dedicating themselves to arts and philosophy. Without challenge, men usually revert to their more basic instincts and motives: the quickest pleasure available, with sex, drugs, and violence topping the list.

    I find coming home from a day's work and realizing I really accomplished things fulfilling. I also find it makes me value what I worked for more. I've lived on my parents' money and I've lived on my own, and I value the things I bought with my own more, even if they aren't actually worth more. That then means that I'm more satisfied with them. Which means I'm happy with less.

    Actually, what makes people scream about that is the realization that there aren't enough resources for everyone to live like a prince. So, the people who have actually worked to live like princes are going to get a bit testy if you tell them they have to live like paupers just like everyone else.
     
  13. The Great Snook Gems: 31/31
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    Good for you. I'm personally proud of you for all of this and you should be proud of yourself. However, how many people in your situation are like you? How many would sit back and wallow in their disability and spend more time trying to "job" the system?

    I give a lot of slack to people who are physically or mentally handicapped. I give no such boon to people who are not. As it was said above they are leeches on society and that is what socialism breeds and that disgusts me.

    Aesop was right. Doesn't anyone read "The Ant and the Grasshopper" anymore?
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2011
  14. joacqin

    joacqin Confused Jerk Veteran

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    How do you define a leech? Discussions like these are always entertaining, I was about to write out your response Snook just after 8people posted because I knew what you were going to say. It isn't *you* 8people, it is all those other leeches. Not people I am confronted with but those *others*. Who are these leeches then? How do you plan to make sure that the people like 8 get hte help they need without being humiliated in the process and not the "leeches"?

    If you against all odds manage to identify and locate these leeches Snook what would you do with these people who disgust you? What are you going to do with their children? What is your answer to the issue that is these disgusting leeches on society?

    I live in what has historically speaking been one of the most socialistic countries in the world and I am proud of it. I have yet to see any large number of people just sitting back expecting to be taken care of, I am sure they exist but not in any greater number than in dog eat dog USA.

    You know what disgusts me? Narrowminded, shortsighted, selfish people wallowing in their own sense of self righteousness.
     
  15. T2Bruno

    T2Bruno The only source of knowledge is experience Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Not necessarily joacqin. I understand Snook's frustration and that this is an emotional topic. To give an example, a "woman I know" and I'll just call her Gamma, went through an extremely rough time a few years back. She dropped out of school, was in and out of hospitals, had a suicide attempt, and in general was having a hard time with life. The state ponied up big time and got her the help she needed. Social Security declared her disabled and she got enough money to take care of herself.

    Those things really helped Gamma, she got on the right meds, and with the confidence she could take care of herself she's really shown remarkable improvement. Seriously, three years ago I didn't think she would make it through the year, let alone to now.

    The government steped in and helped. That's the right thing to do.

    Now Gamma has it together, she no longer experience panic attacks, no longer has thoughts of suicide and actually feels good about herself. But she's decided she doesn't want to work. She enjoys the freedom of having the check come in and not having to get up in the morning and go to work. She's adjusted her life style so she can subsist on the amount she's given and flat out states, "I'm not going to give up my social security check until they make me."

    So she works part time and ensures she doesn't make over a certain amount (which would trigger the SSA to pull her off disability). Her doctors do not believe she is disabled anymore, that she's adjusted well with her med -- hell, even she believes that as well. But she won't give up the "free check" and doesn't even think that her taking a check is possibly keeping someone else that needs it off the program (even though she knew it was a limited program when she applied).

    At some point Gamma crossed the line between being someone that needed help and being a "leech." It's sad.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2011
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  16. The Great Snook Gems: 31/31
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    I also know of someone like that. She is my wife's cousin. She is 60+ years old and hasn't worked for three years. Unlike Gamma she never had a disability or anything wrong with her. She just decided that she had done enough and the world owed her. She has subsisted on unemployment, welfare, and anything else she can find. She actually posts on Facebook the countdown until she can start collecting social security as it will be a bump up in her income as she is looking forward to it. She was furious with our Senator Scott Brown for not voting to extend federal unemployment. She wrote him a vicious letter and when a staff person responded saying that "in good conscience" he couldn't vote to continue to saddle future generations with debt her response was "But what about me?" She is politically very active. She doesn't donate any money, but she is always willing to make phone calls, hold signs, go to rallies, etc. for anyone who will support her non-working lifestyle. If she would work half as hard at work as she does at trying to maintain her benefits she would be better off.
     
  17. Chandos the Red

    Chandos the Red This Wheel's on Fire

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    So this is a thread about Welfare? I thought it was about Michael? I occasionally check out his blog. He was recently involved in Wisconsin. I heard he might be there.

    http://www.michaelmoore.com/
     
  18. Shoshino

    Shoshino Irritant Veteran

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    I can easily define that, across the road from my house (which has now devalued by £15k) there are 3 houses which we call 'the chav houses', each one is occupied by young unemployed people who dont seem to get out of bed until 1pm. they are all on benefits, their rent and bills are paid and they recieve £80 a fortnight on top of that which they spend in the off licence around the corner and on drugs. numerous police callouts to these 3 addresses have turned out happy little street into a trouble hot spot.
     
  19. joacqin

    joacqin Confused Jerk Veteran

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    And that is a definition? What do you know about them? What if they have a believable sob story like T2's Gamma? Even if they do not, what do you suggest to do with these "chavs"?
     
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    OK, you want a formal definition. How about this.

    A leech is an able bodied person who makes the decision that they would rather not work and would prefer to subsist and rely on the government for all of their needs.
     
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