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Ken Lay is Dead

Discussion in 'Alley of Lingering Sighs' started by Aldeth the Foppish Idiot, Jul 5, 2006.

  1. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

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    Well, I'm rather saddened by the fact he won't be sentenced, being dead as he is.

    Regardless of what his punishment would have been, any reasonable sentence would have been tantamount to a life sentence anyway.

    He's Dead.
     
  2. Drew

    Drew Arrogant, contemptible, and obnoxious Adored Veteran

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    Actually, seeing that he died of a heart attack kind of made my day. Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy.
     
  3. NonSequitur Gems: 19/31
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    I won't be shedding tears for Ken Lay. I'm glad he didn't pass away before he was found guilty, though. Since he was facing up to 165 years or so, and given the massive impact of his behaviour, I don't feel it's any great loss to the world.

    I do feel sorry for his family, though. Call me cynical, but I foresee they're going to get dragged through the media and caught up in speculation about whether it was a genuine heart attack or effectively a suicide to avoid sentencing and jail. Barring intervention from a certain political party or media sympathisers that show their gratitude for his contributions over the years, that is.

    Ken Lay may have been a criminal, and his family may have benefited from his illegal actions, but I still think they should be given some space and time to grieve.
     
  4. Gnarfflinger

    Gnarfflinger Wiseguy in Training

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    He's still going to face judgement, and it will be harder for him to make things right now...
     
  5. Drew

    Drew Arrogant, contemptible, and obnoxious Adored Veteran

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    Are you so sure? How do you know that he hasn't already repented and that he didn't turn himself in to make ammends? How do you know that he didn't already ask earnestly for the forgiveness of his sins and, through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, recieved it? I'm surprised you of all people would make such a statement about this man's fate without firsthand knowledge of his spiritual life and his relationship with God. I thought Christians weren't supposed to do that......
     
  6. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

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    Well, there's two ways to go with that. First of all, in many of his public statments that he made before, during and after the trial, it certainly appears that Ken Lay was a very pious man. So in theory, I suppose he could have repented. On the other hand, in those same statements in which he cited his firm belief in Christ, he also stated that he felt he had done nothing wrong. He admitted that the company had failed, but that he did not wrong the stockholders, many of whom held hundreds of thousands, and in some cases millions of dollars of Enron stock, which represented their life savings. So, despite his religious conviction, he may not have penitent. So who knows?
     
  7. T2Bruno

    T2Bruno The only source of knowledge is experience Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Many religions believe restitution to be a vital part of repentence -- no restitution, no forgiveness.
     
  8. Master of Nuhn

    Master of Nuhn Wear it like a crown Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Correct. Christians aren't supposed to do judge.
    But Gnarf never said that he knew about Lay's spiritual life. Technically I agree with what Gnarf sayd. There is indeed judgement and it is indeed harder to make things right. I know Lay is gonna be judged. (I'm gonna be judged myself, too, sometime.) I just don't know what his judgement will be. So lets hope he has repented and enjoys his afterlife.
    Could someone explain to me what restitution exactly is? I have the idea that this is the other way around. Without repentance there is no restitution. But I could be wrong.

    Back to Lay.
    It's a pity he's not judged. I want every criminal to be judged here on earth. Lay, Milosevic, Mengele, Master of Nuhn, every one of them.
    (And I hope that they repented as well)
     
  9. Shoshino

    Shoshino Irritant Veteran

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    interesting how because this dealt with money, he faced such a long jail term, yet had he murdered another man, he would face 12 years before being eligable for parole.
     
  10. Gnarfflinger

    Gnarfflinger Wiseguy in Training

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    @ Drew:

    The biggest problem is that even if he did repent, he delayed the process too long. He failed to make sufficient restitution (thanks T2Bruno). That is what I based my comment on.

    @AFI:

    Interesting. Also in the repentance process is the admission that you have done wrong, be it to God, your victims, your clergyman, even to yourself. If he viewed the situation as failure rather than fraud, then he would not likely admit such wrong doing. He'll find out how much was failure and how much was fraud...

    It involved trying to repair any damage you've caused, and return anything you've taken. You steal something, you return it or pay for it. You break something, you fix it, replace it or pay the repair bill. You hurt someone, you do what you can to help them until they are back to their normal health. Lay didn't do this (death interrupted this), therefore he's still on the hook for this when he first crosses over.

    Actually history has judged Mengele and Milosovich, and Lay will likely be posthumously judged as well. MoN? that chapter is not yet finished...

    I guess it shows how little human life is valued...
     
  11. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

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    Technically, he has already been judged, found guilty, and convicted. The only remaining point of the judicial process was the setnencing. I know when you said posthumously judged, you probably meant it in a spiritual sense, but for what can be done in this life he has been judged - he just hadn't received his punishment yet.

    That's not really an accurate statement. The reason he faced a sentence of up to 160 years is because he was found guilty of a boatload of crimes, and in the U.S., most judges will not let you serve the sentences concurrently - you have to serve them consecutively. Some of his crimes carry a sentence of as little as 5 years, but if you have to serve 32 five-year sentences, you're going away for 160 years. He was going to receive a long sentence not because any one single crime deserved such an extreme punishment, but the cumulative terms of all of his crimes.

    It's also not accurate to say that if he killed someone he'd only get 12 years. That may be true where you live, but not in most places in the U.S. The willful murder (1st degree) of someone in the U.S. always carries a prison term of at least 25 years before you're eligible for parole, but the more common sentence is life without parole. Actually, I believe Enron was based in Texas, a state that allows (and uses more frequently that any other state) the death penalty.

    EDIT: Also, I don't think it's fair to mention Lay in the same breath as Milosevic. Milosevic was charged with various crimes against humanity, including, but not limited to, genocide. For how heinous some of Lay's actions were, it's a far cry from genocide. The other major difference is that Milosevic died before his trial had concluded, whereas Lay did hear the guilty verdict come in.

    [ July 07, 2006, 14:46: Message edited by: Aldeth the Foppish Idiot ]
     
  12. Master of Nuhn

    Master of Nuhn Wear it like a crown Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    True. That's why I included myself there, too. I think I can say I am a nice, law-abiding citizen. But I have made mistakes too, like anybody. I just wanted to make clear that crimes should be punnished. Or at least we want to see them punnished, whoever it is.

    Ah. Thanks. I thought it was something like being sanctified. :heh:
     
  13. khazadman Gems: 6/31
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    The bad thing is, Lay's conviction mught be thrown out because he died before he was sentenced. That would really blow.
     
  14. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

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    No, his conviction won't be thrown out - once you're guilty you're guilty unless there is cause for a new trial - but once the criminal case concluded people would have brought civil cases against him in effort to recoup some of their money. The problem being that it's a whole lot harder to bring a case against someone who is dead. They can still bring a civil suit against his estate, but it will complicate matters.
     
  15. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    I read recently (I think it was in the newspaper) that his conviction might be thrown out because there was to be an appeal, and he died before the appeal could be heard.
     
  16. Shoshino

    Shoshino Irritant Veteran

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    i notice that people in this thread say that he faced 160 years.

    the article said he only faced 40

     
  17. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

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    @Shoshino - In an article I read it said that if he was given the maximum sentence for all charges, he could have faced up to 160 years in prison. However, it is extremely unlikely that he would have received the maximum length for all charges, so your figure of 25-40 seems much closer to reality. However, keep in mind that the guy was 64 years old, so even a rather modest 25 year sentence very well could have amounted to a life sentence.
     
  18. Gawain Gems: 4/31
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    According to Slate, under the principle of "abatement" "Since Ken Lay died before he could appeal, the courts will abate his conviction and all the punishments he would have received."

    So the conviction disappears, and so do the fines.
     
  19. Felinoid

    Felinoid Who did the what now? ★ SPS Account Holder

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    So in death, he gets to screw them over once again. Ugh. :grr:
     
  20. Drew

    Drew Arrogant, contemptible, and obnoxious Adored Veteran

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    Not really. If the governments move to sieze Lay's assets are held up on the grounds of his appeal not going through, there's always a civil suit. Ken Lay may be dead, but his money isn't gone yet and his family still has it. Frankly, I think his family should do the right thing and not fight tooth and nail to hold on to Lay's ill gotten gains. After they lose the civil suit, they'll not only have no money, but they'll also have lost all sympathy and respect in the eyes of most Americans.
     
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