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Keen rapier? Read again!

Discussion in 'Dungeons & Dragons + Other RPGs' started by Lokken, Jul 26, 2002.

  1. Lokken Gems: 26/31
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    [​IMG] You want a keen rapier? Too bad, won't do. I've several times been reading about people wondering of the marvels of Keen rapier with improved crit feat, but.. if we look up Keen special ability in the DMG (dungeon master's guide) it only affects slashing weapons. So a keen rapier is not a possible aspect of 3E d&d without custom ruling.

    So if you're a munchkin, look for something new. :D

    just felt like sharing since I've seen it many times about the keen rapier.

    [This message has been edited by Lokken (edited July 26, 2002).]
     
  2. Baldak Oakfist Gems: 15/31
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    If not the Keen Rapier, how about a keen Scimitar. It also has a critical threat range of 18-20 but is a slashing weapon. Used with the Improved Critical, you would have a threat range of 12-20.
     
  3. Azardu Gems: 9/31
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    Lokken: Been officially errataed. Keen works on slashing AND piercing.
    There's also a version for bludgeoning weapons in magic of faerun, called "impact", for whomever might be interested.
     
  4. Voltric Gems: 19/31
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    [​IMG] I don't really see this being an issue. Since it's a magic item the DM will have control over where you find or on a limited basis can buy it. The only other issue is if one of the PC has create magic A&A. You're paying the XP so what the problem. True you are increasing your threat range by one but you are dropping from a d8 to a d6 of damage.
     
  5. Lokken Gems: 26/31
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    The thing is the finesse thing, sure you can have a keen improved crit scimitar, but a greatsword would be just as efficient since you cannot finesse a scimitar.

    [This message has been edited by Lokken (edited July 26, 2002).]
     
  6. Skedaddle Gems: 13/31
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    I think that the initial set of enchantments was put there for a reason, and in my understanding rapier is a piercing weapon just because it leaves the dextrous player with a choice of having high AC, high to hit bonus and moderate crit range (finessed rapier) or having lower AC in expense of STR, desired to hit bonus (opposite proportionaly to AC, to some extent) and a supreme crit range with a scimitar.

    An enchnantment that upbrings the crit range of any piercing weapon (to note, I have never heard of it) is bloody nonsensual. Piercing weapons (starting from rapier, and going to picks with their amazing x4 crit mods) with increased crit ranges disbalance the weapon set.

    Impact, on the other hand is perfectly acceptable. Blundgeoning weapons generally have their 1-number range, and even with triple crit mod, 2-number is perfectly acceptable. Here it's also worth noting that my Impact Warhammer will only have x3/18-20 based on STR, should I also take Improved Critical on it. With a rapier, as some propose, I will have a 15-20 on a "keen" device and 12-20 with improved crit, and I will finesse that? Millepardons, nonsense. Same with picks. They're hard to strike, but if they do, it hurts. x4/19-20 is a deadly weapon, even with base damage of d6, if you are willing to invest a feat in it.

    Finesse is not a "genuine way to munchkin power", it's a highly balanced feat, and the requirement for Keen wasn't a whim of a designer too. That is why an elf with a finessed keen rapier is shunned and booed off any self-respecting roleplaying party :)

    [This message has been edited by Skedaddle (edited July 27, 2002).]
     
  7. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    I don't get your beef about a keen finessed rapier. Some character with a keen finessed improved critical rapier, 18 DEX, 10 STR and studded leather armor is the same in melee (AC, to hit and threat range) as another character with a keen improved critical scimitar, 10 DEX, 18 STR and half-plate armor. The only difference is the rapier wielder had to use a feat and in return gets better ranged to-hit and better reflex saves, while the guy with the muscles gets better damage (not inconsequential given his crits double his damage bonus to 8 as well as doubling the die roll damage).

    [This message has been edited by Blackthorne TA (edited July 27, 2002).]
     
  8. Skedaddle Gems: 13/31
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    [​IMG] A Strong guy and a Fast guy may be more or less equal in that situation, but ultimately, a strong guy gains a bit more damage, lower AC against touch attacks (though higher vs flat-footed attacks) and a terrifying armor check penalty.
    The fast guy gains higher natural AC, better Ref saves, much lower armor check, ability to use 2 finessed rapiers (Ambidexterity costs 15 DEX) and Dodge (13 DEX). Ambidexterity is one more point, which allows the Fast guy to compensate for the lack of STR damage bonus with an additional attack.

    So, higher DEX is a certain bargain for powerhungry players, and thus the hype.

    Edited (Of course you are correct BTA, what crawled up my head...) :)
    ps. Finesse states that a free hand is required for balance with a weapon. Does that mean that it's impossible to fully benefit from finesse with 2 weapons? I think so.

    [ July 29, 2002, 02:00: Message edited by: Skedaddle ]
     
  9. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    OK, I can see your point, but I don't see it as such a big advantage that it should be shunned and booed :)

    About the finesse and ambidexterity, it's actually weapon finesse that states you need your second hand for balance, and that a shield penalizes you by the armor check penalty of the shield. I would submit that you can balance just as well with another weapon in your off hand as without. It's the movement restrictions of a shield strapped to your forearm held close to your body for protection that causes the problem, not a weapon in your hand.
     
  10. Vormaerin Gems: 15/31
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    Why does everyone keep making these comparisons between a person using a particular weapon/feat combination and a person just using a given weapon? For this sort of comparison to be at useful, you have to consider what the second character used that feat one.

    Its not 'finessed rapier' vs scimitar; its finessed rapier vs 'scimitar +1 feat'. The same thing with the dual wielding vs two handed weapon argument. If you don't know what the additional feat or feats is, you can't make a meaningful comparison. Of course finesse/dual wielding/etc gives an advantage, that's the whole point of having a feat.

    A more reasonable question is "Does a dual finessed rapier wielding elf in studded leather armor have an unbalancing advantage over a full plate, shield, scimitar wielding half orc with powerattack and great cleave?" Or something else along those lines.

    Aloha
    Vormaerin
     
  11. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    [​IMG] Hehe. Probably because it can get pretty complicated.

    I was wondering why a particular choice should be shunned and booed, and I don't think I've gotten a good answer. It seems more of a gut feeling emotional dislike than anything else... :)
     
  12. Vormaerin Gems: 15/31
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    Yes, it is (IMHO) just a case of people seeing something as being very effective without thinking through all the ramifications of that choice. There is a tendency when analyzing focused characters to concentrate on the advantages they gain and ignore the disadvantages.

    Scrawny elves like that have more problems when flatfooted, are vulnerable in grappling/bullrush/overrun/brawling situations, and have a significant disadvantage in damage output against crit resistant or damage reducing foes.

    The brawny half orc has the disadvantages listed in the earlier post.

    I don't see how its a problem myself. Its an effective strategy, but not an overpowering one.
     
  13. Skedaddle Gems: 13/31
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    [​IMG] BTA, pehaps it's my personal bias to keep distance from them scrawny elves with finessed keen rapiers. :) They also tend to be clad in mithral chains, raising their AC to heights enormous, thus being quite resistant to 'brawling' situations (You can't catch 'im, you can't grapple 'im, hehe), and in situations that require touch attacks DEX helps more than any armor.

    I still wish to know which piece of official media allowed Keen to be used on piercing weapons.
     
  14. Vormaerin Gems: 15/31
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    Well, I'm sure I could keep piling fancy equipment on my half orc to match if I really wanted to. :) Anyway, good fighters are good fighters, but you'll have a hard time proving one type of good fighter is vastly better than another.

    Did you look on the WotC website? They supposedly have an errata section. It might also be in some other supplement somewhere. I know I got a dressing down by a couple of children over on the NWN boards because I was playing the game with house rules since I hadn't applied the Wildshape "rules update" in Masters of the Wild. Which is apparently 'official' and replaces the rules in the PHB. :rolleyes: I would have been pretty funny if it wasn't so sad.
     
  15. joacqin

    joacqin Confused Jerk Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Come on people, we are talking one lousy d6 here. When a character can get the improved critical feat I dont think another d6 makes that much difference. I would think that the rapier wielding character would need anything he can get to make him deal a bit more damage. The regular fighter has atleast 3 in str bonus and then 2 in specialisation bonus giving him atleast +5 in damage. The rapier wielding one doesnt have that. I say lets keen everything up, when you get stuff like that an additional d6 doesnt do much difference.
     
  16. Skedaddle Gems: 13/31
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    Hehe... A lousy d6? Why, drop the lousy rapier and take up a greatsword. It can be keen, and the addon is twice the lousy d6. :)
    Oh, but you want your finesse, high AC, initiative, hide mods and reflex saves? Then stick with the lousy d6. That's the idea of balance.
     
  17. Azardu Gems: 9/31
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    Skeddadle:
    DMG errata, middle of page 4: "p. 187, (Keen weapon description)
    CHANGE the second sentence to: Only piercing or slashing weapons can be enchanted to be keen." :)

    Vormaerin: It is my understanding that the MotW wildshape rules are optional. While they may be official for that book, I highly doubt they are "core rules", as I see no mention of them either in the errata, faq or SRD. In other words, they're just flavor. Of course, this is just my opinion, though I pity the man that undertakes the quest to add all "official" material into his game. :p

    Oh, and a "dual finesse rapier wielding elf" would attract the -4/-4 penalty for having a medium weapon in his off hand, right? ;)
    Rather have a dual finesse shortsword wielding human then, in my opinion. :p
     
  18. Skedaddle Gems: 13/31
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    Alright, alright. But I'd be a worse fool than I am to ever agree with that rule :)

    And, no, it has to be an elf, jes' because human does not get the DEX bonus, thus loses attack. And an elf can always snatch something light in the off hand (keen light pick? hehe).
     
  19. Voltric Gems: 19/31
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    [​IMG] Azardu, even though this is getting off topic a little bit, I believe the wildshape rules from MotW replace those in the PHB. Mind you all rules are optional for a DM but I think the rewrite is more clear and fixes a lot of issues in the original description. Feel free to start a new topic to expand on this issue.
     
  20. Azardu Gems: 9/31
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    Skedaddle: You have to choose what kind of weapon to use Weapon Finesse with, according to the PH (Yes I know it's different in NWN, and yes I am a rules whore :p ), so then you would still be applying the dex mod only to the rapier, unless you take the feat twice. Which, IMO, seems like wasting precious feats, if you're going the way of the munchkin.

    Voltric: I'm way too lazy to start a new topic :p And I quite agree with your points. It's the labeling of core rules superseded by optional material as house rules I don't like. ;)
     
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