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Kaelyn the Dove or Kelemvor?

Discussion in 'Neverwinter Nights 2' started by Beren, Jul 23, 2011.

  1. Beren

    Beren Lovesick and Lonely Wanderer Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    A question focusing on the cosmology of the Realms.

    Do you agree with ...

    Kaelyn, that its fundamentally cruel and unjust to condemn any soul, no matter how evil or good or selfless, to the slow and painful and ultimate death in the Wall of the Faithless?

    Or do you agree with ...

    Kelemvor, that its a necessary cost of having to maintain the pact between the gods and mortals, for surely there would be worse consequences to follow?

    Granted, we don't live in the fictional world of the Realms, and likely have our own belief systems that may not have the possibility contemplated by something like the Wall as an afterlife condemnation. But ... I guess I'm encouraging a sort of 'stepping into the shoes' of a FR character who's confronted with this quite complex and now very immediate issue.
     
  2. Paracelsi

    Paracelsi Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    I believe that the wall should be destroyed, but I do not agree with either Kaelyn (who is optimistic to a fault) or Kelemvor (who is pragmatic to a fault). I actually blame the writers for not thinking this one through - the wall is a very bad approach to incorporating atheism in a world where there are gods/goddesses, who (all together) are constantly making their presences known. In such a world choosing a patron god should be as much a necessity as wearing clothes, and if you don't choose a god (or don't live by the tenets of one, regardless of whether you acknowledge him as your patron or not) you're either hardcore or as crazy a person who decides to go hiking nude in the Antarctic.

    Sane people who get tricked into renouncing their deity should be classified as indirectly worshipping the god of discontent (who, if he existed, would probably be a greater deity) or the dark god responsible for the trickery (since, apparently, you can end having some other god as your patron without consciously meaning to in D&D). While one can argue that technically these people are not worshiping any deity, a similar justification is currently being used for children and babies (who, if slain, are claimed by the gods/goddesses of their parents). The evidence that gods exist is so overwhelming in D&D that for a sane person to actually renounce his deity implies either great psychological trauma - these people have become as unfit to make decisions regarding which god to follow as ordinary children - or extreme courage - you've consciously decided to continue living in a world where everyone else can roll a prayer roll of 20 and kill you in your sleep.

    In any case, the wall is far from a perfect solution, and I'd hate to imagine how many innocent godless souls it has already consumed (slain children/babies of "faithless" individuals, dominated/charmed individuals who were tricked into renouncing their faith before being murdered, etc).
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2011
  3. pplr Gems: 18/31
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    I lean towards Kaelyn on this one.

    Why, because the kindness in one's heart matters and Kaelyn sees the injustice of harming good and decent people.

    If the wall was reserved for cruel murderers then she would likely have less of a problem with it. But it isn't.

    There is no justice in the Wall.

    You do have people who are willfully stupid or ignorant (Gann?) as it is hard not to acknowledge if one lived in the D&D world that there were priests casting spells and even the rare avatar.

    But there are the occasional innocent exceptions such as people who died as babies (good point Paracelsi) or very young children.


    Now I think the game may conflict with how Kelemvor himself tried to solve the situation at one point by simply having non-followers congregate in areas of like alignment.

    But the game fails to acknowledge that.

    Kaelyn may be over optimistic, may not have the power to make what she wants to happen, but tries to do the moral thing.

    I don't hate Kelemvor, he has some principles even if they are buried under law and worries, but I lean towards Kaelyn.
     
  4. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    I agree with Kelemvor because the Faithless bring it upon themselves; they know the consequences of thier actions.

    That doesn't mean as the protagonist in MotB I wouldn't attempt to bring down the Wall due to the injustice of my soul being placed there via some kind of magical swap. Quite the contrary; I most definitely would if I could if Kelemvor wouldn't rectify the situation.
     
  5. Merlanni

    Merlanni Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    They are both right. That does not solve anything. Perhaps, not to be funny, Kelemvor gives the job to Kaelyn to monitor the wall. In a sort of demi-god fashion for unbelievers.
     
  6. Blades of Vanatar

    Blades of Vanatar Vanatar will rise again Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Considering Kelemvor is the God of the Dead in the FR, his will should reign supreme when determining what happens to a mortal when they die. Kelemvor is a LN deity, not LG. Don't mix-up justice with goodness. Ao, the Overgod, has giving each Deity a portfolio to lord over for a reason. When they failed to do this, he previously punished the gods, hence the Avatar Trilogy and the ascension to godhood for Kelemvor, Cyric and Midnight.
     
  7. NguyenGiaThai Gems: 3/31
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    The matured, knowledgeable atheists in such a universe should be possible, though rare. More than likely they are a breed of discontented and disenchanted ex-worshipers, who dont want to put faith into gods and goddesses anymore. And they are either courageous or dont give a damn about celestial retaliations.
     
  8. pplr Gems: 18/31
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    I would lean towards the latter as some of the D&D gods are quite helpful/friendly (perhaps more so than Greek based gods that could be quite petty).

    So to turn from them isn't really courageous.

    Now it could be that there following is so rare in some parts of FR that the person may grow up without knowing of them (I think Lolth may keep many drow at least partly ignorant on purpose)-but that is a lack of knowledge rather than courage or frustration.
     
  9. Shardnax Gems: 6/31
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    Speaking from my personal beliefs, Kelemvor is completely justified. It's not called the Wall of the Faithless for nothing; the people there knew what they were getting themselves into when they willingly chose not to serve.

    From an 'in the realms' perspective, I'd be serving Ao. As long as Kelemvor didn't screw it up with Ao, I wouldn't care.
     
  10. NguyenGiaThai Gems: 3/31
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    That's more like bullying or anything. A true atheist want no god to interfere into his affair, will most likely follow Ao. That make sure of things without being too aggressive in-you-face-biatches to those trigger-happy gods and goddesses. And paying lip service to Ao is just too safe and cheap for the non-interference.

    I think those poor bastards in the Wall are more likely the disaffected, disenchanted, and just dont give a damn. Therefore Kelemvor is a bully.
     
  11. Paracelsi

    Paracelsi Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Remember, Ao is known for completely ignoring his followers. I wouldn't rely on him for protection against an angry god.

    When an Ao worshiper dies, no one knows what happens to them. It is hinted that they end up in the Wall of the Faithless but there's no explicit information.

    Edit: Done.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2011
  12. NguyenGiaThai Gems: 3/31
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    Hmmm there're self-contradictory statement in your post. Would you like to revisit the said statement to edit it one final time?
     
  13. Shardnax Gems: 6/31
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    The info on Ao is pretty vague. The only books I know he pops up in are the Avatar books, and it's only because he's super pissed.
     
  14. NguyenGiaThai Gems: 3/31
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    And that might be acceptable to your Ao-lip-service atheists. Better the unknown than your usual playpens-for-gods.
     
  15. Rawgrim Gems: 21/31
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    Ao is based on the christian god actually (Alpha and Omega). Some triva for you there.
     
  16. Paracelsi

    Paracelsi Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Minus all the religion, which was apparently what the original wanted in the first place.
     
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