It has been two years, but I can’t stop wondering…

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Well, my excpectation of that war would be. They'd maybe manage to get some ships, get over the ocean just to end up completly stoned 4 kilometers in front of The Hague before get tossed back in the ocean as illegal aliens.

 

@Yago: Not if the Pennsylvanians were led by this guy, who has the best performances of any field general in the state since Gettysburg.

But to get back on topic, there have been terrorist attacks on non-American sites sice the attacks in NY and DC two years ago - think about Bali, Jakarta, Bombay. Those efforts were not of the same scale as the WTC attack, but they hardly went unnoticed.

 

Since the Soul Forever Seeking seems to be slacking on his dedication to the various lost awards of ill-fated Sept 12, 2001, I've taken it upon myself to bring to light a glorious award, won justly, but tragically overshadowed by the selfish burning Americans in any number of spots around the U.S.

http://www.fortbendstar.com/Archives/2001_3q/091201/s_cub_scout_pack_616_earns_award.htm

Fear not, Soul Forever Seeking, those cub scouts will now be remembered in the annals of history, for the remarkable achievement of capturing the coveted, "National Summertime Pack Award."

Now lets examine the culprits who doggedly made sure this righteous occasion was obscured into obsolescence!

We have before us 3 Eleven-year olds! These dastardly children had the audacity to be on American Airlines Flight 77, from Washington to Los Angeles, which crashed into the Pentagon with 64 people aboard. They were, "embarking on an educational trip to the Channel Islands National Marine Sanctuary near Santa Barbara, California, as part of a program funded by the National Geographic Society."

I hope Mr. Soul Forever Seeking feels vindicated that this wrong has been set to right, for now and forever.

 

I'm with Eze on this one.

America is the largest propaganda machine these days, as callous as it may sound...

 

Tough talk. I'd be a little more impressed by it, however, if it didn't come from someone whose country is safely on the other side of the Atlantic ocean and never had to worry about being invaded and occupied.

As for media coverage of the Twin Towers, of course it wouldn't have been as massive if it had happened outside the U.S., or at least not for quite so long after the fact. The largest news network in the world is CNN, and CNN is an American company. It is hopelessly biased in favour of all things American, and of course a tragedy that takes place in the U.S. would be considered to be much more tragic than one that takes place anywhere else, especially if it's a place the American Idiot-in-Chief couldn't pronounce, let alone find on a map. (Sorry about that, but Dubya just gets me going.)

If you want unbiased, thorough news reporting, watch BBC World Service.

 

Rallymama,
sure, and another one in Jerba, aimed on german tourists even. But nevertheless they are, compared to the total number of incidents of the last 10 or 15 years, only a fraction. Israel and the US are by far the most popular targets, with terror aimed on israel today mainly focusing on israeli territory (and not as in the 70s and 80s on airliners and assets overseas).

Of course, you have to sort out the regional stuff, that is the mad irish and the ETA, as well as the algerian madmen bombing in france.

 

I have to agree with Cross on that one -- I watch the BBC news, or listen to it, whenever I can. They certainly seem to spend more time dealing with international affairs than any western news service, and that includes my own country's beloved and lame CBC.
As for the World Trade Centre attack, it was pathetic and cowardly -- 3000 people died in one day (approx)
Now during the German invasion of Belgium, as they "speed bumped" their way through to France, I have no solid statistics, but I can guarantee more than 3000 Belgians lost their lives, even if it weren't only in one day. Their lives are just as important and valuable as those of the people lost in the WTC attack, and they deserve more respect than the speed bump comment -- sanctimonius? Sure, but true nonetheless. No one would tolerate such a slur being levied at the WTC victims.

 

I agree with Cross as well, if you don't want American-centric media/television (hell, I don't and I am American), then don't watch the American media (cnn, whatever), it seems sort of unreasonable to complain about it. If you can't avoid U.S. news in your own country on its own networks, ***** about your own networks.

What I can't seem to figure out is where the ire is coming from. Are people saying they're pissed because it should not have gotten as much attention as it did... or are people pissed off because they feel that the U.S. wouldn't care if it happened in their country?

 

I think it's the second one, Art. There is a feeling in the world, which I'm not sure is unfounded, that the US does not really consider human beings who do not have Us citizenship to be as important or valuable, in an absolute sense, as a human being with such citizenship.

Now, I understand that a country's first priority should be it's taxpayers and citizens, but the feeling runs a little beyond that.

 

Well that brings me back to a point I made a few days ago on another thread... why the hell does anyone care what America thinks about your country, or a catastrophic even that did or didn't happen?

Get over yourselves.

No one asked our overseas neighbors (or Canadians, who, if you were to judge by this board, have a real bug in their bum over this stuff) for their "attention." In fact, I think when it all went down, all the citizens wanted was some time to grieve it off, the government wanted someone to blame, and the media wanted a buck. So what? That's pretty much how it works, nothing really unusual there.

If you expose yourself to an information overload on it, blame yourself. No one forced you. If you MUST watch TV and that's the only thing on, *you* have a problem.

 

With this I agree, well spoken ArtE

 

I think there would have been slightly less coverage had it been another country. Weather people like it or not the US is a superpower. The world seems to watch America these days. (Weather thats good or bad, i dont know ) But the point is it happened in one of the most famous cities in one of the most famous countries and that does effect the coverage.

Let's hope we never find out the answers.

 

Quite but nevertheless:

Sure, except that some 58 years ago they sent some thousand boys to clean up a small mess here in Europe. Now I don't want to start a discussion about communism, but some people seem to have quite a selective historical memory.

Otherwise, I pretty much agree with ArtE's last post. Except for a detail: smaller countries always look up to see what is going on in bigger countries. Since USA is the biggest country around, there is little choice but to follow what is going on there. I still agree that noone should complain tough (some kind of a nationwide "get a life" reply ?).

 

Thank god someone else said that! I was getting ready to get fired up!

Ahh...What the hell. America's entire life was brought about by bloodshed. We broke free from colonialist Europe over two hundred years ago, we fought a terrible internal civil war in which 500,000 Americans died. All because we believed we could make something great here.

Don't tell me about how tough we talk. We back it up too! We were the predominant invasion force in Normandy in World War II. Not to diminish the combined effort, but America was able to help make a success out of a seemingly suicide mission: an amphibious assault on a well fortified enemy.

We even took on another invasion in the North. You may have heard of it: Operation Market Garden. We were given another impossible task; Drop into enemy occupied Holland and try to free it from the Nazi's. Most historical accounts say it never really had a chance of success, but we did it anyway. We did it to liberate Europe, the land where most of our ancestors descended from.

I'll forgive your caustic remarks about the US because if not for some brave Americans who not only talked tough, but backed it up with action, helped to give you back the right to say what you want...I'm sure the Nazi's wouldn't have been so forgiving.

Now for the last point. Even if anyone could reach the US to invade it, they would never succeed. You think we're stirred up now? Imagine how we'd be if someone was in our backyard. Our military would almost assuredly defeat any agressor on our territory. But even if they didn't, you'd see the greatest civilian militia resistance in history. They wouldn't last a month.

Anyway, today's the wrong day to get into this...Personally, instead of moments of silence we should have moments of bombing. Every time I see the attack I get nothing but mad! The sad thing is, it's our generosity that targets us! Look at our foes; they were once allies from the Cold War and beyond. Hussein we backed against Iran because of the Soviets, Bin Laden in Afghanistan too. And now it looks like the Saudi's were never really our friends.

As far as I'm concerned, it's about time we settled a few more old scores...

 

As some people have already said the main reason is that what happens in USA affects all the world and that's why the media coverage, that it gets, is something logical. It has happened in the past, it's not something new. JFK was muredered in 1963, everybody in the world knows that. How many of you know who Aldo Moro, Palme or Aliente were? They were prime ministers in their countries, they were murdered but due to the fact that their countries don't have a major influence on the world economics and politics, they are almost forgotten.By the way 9/11 is also the anniversary of Aliente's murder.



@Sir Bel

This colonialist Europe was the countries of your ancestors, as you mentioned in your post. How can someone break free from his fatherland (don't tell me that the rebels of the american revolution believed that they were a separate nation)? You wrote that the revolution and the civil war took place because you believed you could make something great. If I'm not mistaken the american revolution happened due to heavy british taxes and the civil war wasn't a war against slavery but a conflict between the industrial north and the agricultural south. I'm sorry but I can't see much greatness in these things.

An amphibious assault, which would be a failure if the majority of German army and the best German divisions were not fighting in Russia. You couldn't win without the soviets and soviets couldn't win without you and of course you couldn't invade without Britain as a base. The main american contribution to the war was its industrial power, not its army. As far as the performance of the american army in the European front? Newbies, who found a hard time against second line and bad equiped german troops and things becomes worst when they met elite german divisions and equipment in the later stages of Normandy campaign, in Arhnem and in Ardennes. The Normandy campaign was planned to last 15 days and lasted two months and they only reason the allies won was their total air superiority and not the abilities and the courage of their ground troops.

The suicide missions of operation Market Garden belonged to the british and polish paratroopers not to the american units.

I can understand your anger and your need for revenge but what you and your administration fail to understand is that the bombings don't destroy terrorists on the contrary they create more suicide bombers.

I believe that you're kidding now. Since when is generocity to have your opponents fighting wars in which you don't spill a drop of blood?

 

I'm sorry, but isn't that what's gotten the U.S, into its current predicament in Iraq? Hussein had nothing to do with Al Quaida; it was just Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld and the other hawks wanting to get even, since "daddy" Bush didn't let them finish playing in the sand the last time. Now more and more U.S., British (and 1 Danish) troops are being sent home in caskets, simply because some old men had a childish grudge. I can't think of a sadder way to go...

Oh, they weren't. Norway was occupied for five years. How would you like that? 5 years under nazi rule? I lost family back then; people I will never meet, because they were killed for being in the Resistance, put up against a wall and shot for not bending over for the invaders. So please, no lectures on how well the American people would or could have fought; it just doesn't impress me any.

 

Krazilek wrote:

I can't help but thinking, that the Americans where themselves threatend by events a few thousand miles away. Given some time to fully play out.

Sir Belisarius wrote:

Franklin Delano Roosevelt said:

Annual Message to Congress (1941)

 

You know, there is a lot that I disagree with that is going on with America, right now. I hate the war in Iraq and I profoundly disagree with the current leaders. I'm a bit surprised by what I'm reading on this thread. I find it odd that on an occasion such as today that I have to pick up the banner of what I think is great about my own country. I would think that some might have been more generous on a day that is marked by so much tragedy for us here.

It seems odd that someone chose PA. It is in a small building there that the founders of this country decided that they had had enough of what was going wrong in Europe at that time and decided on a very different destiny for the people living here. The greatness of America is not in its military but in its ideas. What happened in that hall in PA changed the course of human events, and people would never think the same way about government and what it meant for a people to be "ruled" by it again.

I'm going to lift a few lines from a book that I really like by Jeff Shaara, _The Last Full Measure_. It is a book about the closing years of the Civil War for those who are not familiar with it. In it, there is a conversation between Grant and Lincoln, who speaks of the importance of winning the war:

"Perhaps we are simply arrogant, perhaps we have not earned the respect...perhaps the rest of the world should not take us seriously. But if we succeed, if we can end this rebellion and bring ourselves back together again, if we can prove that this system works...we become a threat. What then will stop others, anywhere people allow themselves to think, people who do not wish to suffer under someone else's domination, who can use us for inspiration? What will stop this system from spreading all over the world? Can you imagine that, Mr. Grant? Can you imagine the power of that? I'm guessing there are many -call them what you will, kings, monarchs, despots -listening to reports of our war, staring out the windows of their enormous palaces, wondering if there is not some John Adams or Ben Franklyn or George Washington somewhere out there, someone who will rise up out of muddy fields or the oppression of some small village and sweep them away."

It is the power of ideas that changes things, not the big guns. The Civil War was not just about economics. Nor was the Revolution just about taxes. But about the idea that the many need not be governed by the few. That is what I love most about my country, especailly on a day such as this.

[ September 12, 2003, 07:17: Message edited by: Chandos the Red ]

 

Quoting Yago:

You are completely right. Their business however was in the pacific ocean. Nothing forced them to take action this side of the atlantic ocean.

@ Cross: I understand your grief. But who knows how long would the war have been without american help ? Those soldiers who lost their lives here also left a grieving familiy back home. The difference being that there they do not have the (possible) comfort of knowing that their beloved died for their country.

For heaven sake, we still get emotional about events and deaths which are 50 years old, and still you go bashing someone for something that happened 2 years ago ?
Sure, I also do not like the reaction as a nation, but give some respect to the people please !

 

Certainly ideas have a strong impact. The american ideals of freedom and democracy are indeed appealing. But it means to simplify to reduce america's influence overseas only to that. In WW-II america defeated Hitler, but it didn't bring democracy here. We had that before, even though Hitler came. That is, bad for our democracy that it was burdened with Versailles. Actually the Weimar republic is an example what an outside intervention with a forced on regime and forced on condition can do to a country.

One example: American soldiers brought my mom to an army hospital in 1946 or so when she had diphteria as a child. She received penicillin and that saved her life. But probably she wouldn't have got ill without the allies devastating our country with their bombing camapign. The memories of growing up in cellars and the remaining fear of fire are the other things she received in that period. Not that she had a problem with getting rid of Hitler, that's a blessing.

But America has a tradition of spreading mixed blessings. The same applies to the middle east, and IMO it got considerably worse after WW-II, and that is not only because of the cold war. Have a look at all the US sponsored coups in Iran, Chile, Argentina and all the other places. It gives credit to the character of these blessings that well reputed elder statesman Henry Kissinger has to consult his lawyers before travelling the world as he doesn't want to suffer Pinochets fate and be injailed and trialed in a country that received on of his cures: "Anticommie Dictator (tm)" In the middle east it quicly became the saecular dictator. One of the american ideals, self determination, seemingly isn't for export.

Insofar the american ideals are great and worth to fight for. But looking at them doesn't give an explanation why people dislike the US and revert to acts of terror. It's probably because of the less presentable things done in their name. And not recognising this is shortsighted.

[ September 12, 2003, 15:45: Message edited by: Ragusa ]