Israel vs Lebanon: Deliberate Targetting of UN Positions, Red Cross?

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But it is not their territory, it is Arab's stolen homeland. Israel is an invader in there and tries to take what is Arab's. If everybody tries to go to their very old homelands, then America and Australia should be left to natives( there are very few, especially Indians in America, because of genocide). Because America was native people's land just 500 years ago, not 2000 years. Its an unjust invasion, so in my opinion, there is no Israel territory, it is Arab's territory.

 

Only problem with that is that Hezbollah runs:
4 hospitals (free for members)
12 clinics
12 schools
2 agricultural centres

Sources:
http://www.irinnews.org/report.asp?ReportID=52494&SelectRegion=Middle_East

http://www.library.cornell.edu/colldev/mideast/hlphzbl.htm

And on Hamas:

http://www.cfr.org/publication/8968/

It is their terrotory now and as such deserve the right to peace there, regardless of whether it should have been created in the first place.

 

@Argohir: So in your mind it's OK to turn the clock back 60 years, but 2000 is too far? Hypocrite. How fortunate that the people working in diplomatic circles these days are willing to deal with the facts of the present.

 

To be fair 60 years in still in some peoples lifetimes, 2000 is not. Rally how would you feel if some foreigner kicked you out of your home and you have to live in a foreign country or on a tiny allocated piece of land?

[ August 03, 2006, 15:54: Message edited by: Cúchulainn ]

 

I completely agree. Everybody should understand that Israel doesn't have the right to kick Arabs out of their home. I think those who don't understand this will only understand it when they are kicked out of their country by invaders. I wish you understand it one day.

Edit: @Rallymama: I hope you know the difference between 60 and 2000. I think I shouldn't explain it, it is so obvious. 2000 years is enough for a land to change hand because in both sides culture, the land changes hand and in most cases, people forget about the old state of that land. But 60 years is shorter than a lifetime and there are people who once lived in Israel. And people are fighting for their homeland for years. 60 years are barely enough for an event to enter the history books, it is very fresh.

You call Hezbollah terrorist and support the invaders who kills Lebanese child and woman intentionally? The real hypocrite.

[ August 03, 2006, 15:54: Message edited by: Argohir ]

 

In my opinion, all this talk about kicking Israel out of the Mideast is a red herring. I would think it is pretty obvious that before the Israeli (and US) would allow such a thing to happen, much of the region would be radioactive glass.

So, Hezbollah cannot realisticaly hope to achieve its stated aim of destroying Israel, unless they are willing to see Lebanon destroyed also. There is a possibility that they are completely nuts, and don't really care what happens in the end, but I think more probably that they are using fighting Israel just as an excuse to amass and hold power.

Hence my comments that they do not care about the population. Really, just think how better Lebanon could be in another 5 years if they'd have left Israel alone. I mean, Hamas has at least a shred of an excuse for continuing their fight (all those settlements), but what exactly is Hezbollah fighting for?

And about the refugees being kicked out from their own land: another red herring. Does anybody believe that those people in camps would not jump at the occasion of having a new job (and life) in one of the arab countries, if offered the chance, versus waiting for Israel to take them back? Come on. Of course, being a war refugee is traumatic; but in some 50 years you'd think you would forget it and want to get on with your life.

[ August 03, 2006, 17:11: Message edited by: khaavern ]

 

That is a pretty inflammatory statement. While I'm a sure that plenty of women and children (AKA human shields) have been killed in the conflict, you make it seem like Israel is going after sewing circles. I see a world of difference between one side that may kill civilians when a bomb or artillery shell hits the wrong target (including mistakes in intelligence) vs. the other side that deliberately lobs rockets at the civilian populace and sends suicide bombers to specifically kill civilians.

If anything the kidnappings that started this entire affair were the first honorable thing Hezbollah has ever done. At least they were finally targeting people who could fight back.

Have you ever wondered why nobody criticizes Hezbollah and company for never attacking a military base, yet Israel is lambasted for each "innocent" (and I use the term loosely) death?

 

There is nothing inflammatory about it when remembering what started this thread. Oh, and even less so when recalling Israel's goal of bombing Lebanon 20 years back. Pray tell, how can that be achieved without targeting civilian targets?
What they are up to is pretty self-evident. I think it barbarism.

 

Well, to put things in context, more people have been killed in Iraq than in Lebanon since this fight started. Considering how many operations are undertaken by their military every day, you can hardly say that Israel is targetting civilians.

About the infrastructure, though, I agree. They should have left power plants alone.

 

So, the situation of Iraq serves to put Israel's actions into perspective. Something good comes of that disaster after all.

I did not know that in the past 20-plus days more than 900 died in Iraq, though.

 

True, but then again I live in reality. In reality people die horrible deaths in battle. In fantasyland war is perfect and only the combatants get killed and all of the friendly civilians get to go about their lives as if nothing happened.

A better question may be are their any civilians in Lebanon. If your neighbor three houses down the street from you sits on his roof and shoots flare guns into the woods and you do nothing. Are you not guilty when the flare guns eventually set the forest on fire and cause loss of life and property? Are the Lebanese citizens complicit in letting Hezbollah turn their neighborhoods into launching pads, their apartment buildings into bomb manufacturing plants, their neighbors into human bombs? It is food for thought.

The natural argument is "The Lebanese police/govt had no way to stop them from doing all those terrible things." I'm not sure that exempts them from blame.

 

The Palastinians (or Philistinians) settled Cannan/Palastine in 1200 B.C. and the Jews settled the land in 1000 B.C., this is an excepted historic fact. The Jews where then kicked out in 76 A.D. and reintroduced in 1946. I don't know but it seems the Jews not only kicked the Palastinians out of Palastine TWICE, but they also have less history in Palastine then the Palastinians.

That would make abortion bombings the FBI's fault because despite not being able to do anything, they are still are responsible for stopping this bombers.

I hate taking Palastine's side as there are some real monsters in their midst that they don't do much of anything about for a variety of reasons, but the Zionists (as I'm not ignorant enough to lump all Jews in this group) have had a big hand in all that has come to pass since they got the UN to give them a homeland at the expense of others.

 

There have been a heck of a lot of civilian deaths in Iraq recently. I don't have exact figures for the time frame you're asking, but in July there were 1275 deaths in Iraq according to this site. They also claim that the first three days of August have claimed another 108 lives. So it is quite possible that in the time frame you're talking about there were more than 900 killed in Iraq. The numbers include both civilians and combat deaths, many of which are Iraqi Security Forces.

 

That is a little bit of a different situation. Your situation implies that the FBI knew someone was preparing a bomb and was going to set it off and did nothing. If anything I think law enforcement does an excellent job at preventing pro-life radicals from blowing up the joints.

 

Wont Israel wish for a little bit of fantasyland when school busses are blown up again? Though none was given - and none can be asked for.

 

Do you name escaping civilians as human shields?

If you think in this way, there are no civilians in Israel because they do nothing against their army's cruel and barbaric ways.

 

You seem to be implying that Hezbollah and all of their like-minded fanatics were peace-loving let bygone be bygone friendly folk. The equation is very simple. If Israel does nothing, they get bombed. If they fight back they get bombed. Maybe I'm too much of cowboy (although I live in the Northeast), but to me if the outcome is the same they have nothing to lose by trying to forcibly stop them.

Diplomacy is a wondeful idea, and everyone would love to live in peace. It amazes me that people don't realize that for diplomacy to work both sides have to have the goal of peace. Here is a quote from Al Qaeda's number 2 guy.

Their stated goal is not peace, therefore diplomacy with them is a sham. Failure to see this is a delusion. How people can support Hezbollah, et al, and blame Israel really confuses the hell out of me (I changed this as what I originally typed was way to inflammatory and I'm sure violated the rules).

PS- after reading the above quote I would be nervous if I lived in Spain.


EDIT:

No, I don't think this at all. The army is doing what the will of the people has ordered them to do. They are not doing anything illegal. Maybe I'm crazy, but I would like to think that even Lebanon has laws against launching rockets and bomb-making, which would make the people doing said activities criminals.

If you don't see that, then I'm guessing there isn't an argument in the world that can convince you.

 

So just because reality isn't and can be perfect, we should not try to improve it? That's not a very good argument, I'm afraid; if it were so, we might as well just die as we are bound to do so eventually.

Sure, in a war civilians always suffer, and probably die, but that doesn't mean that they should not be protected. Israeli leaders probably regret civilian casualties, but if they do not do everything they do to avoid them, they should be considered guilty, just as Hezbollah leaders are. More guilty or less guilty... when deaths are involved, such qualifications become senseless. If anything, they have more control over their own militaries than Siniora has over the Hezbollah military wing. Of course, as one can guess, the IDF may have as strong a lobby in Tel Aviv as Hezbollah has in Beirut. Ironical, isn't it, that some of the most famous Israeli moderates have been military men?

"Are the Lebanese citizens complicit in letting Hezbollah turn their neighborhoods into launching pads, their apartment buildings into bomb manufacturing plants, their neighbors into human bombs? It is food for thought. "

So, let's see, what exactly are they supposed to do, start throwing rocks at them? By the same logic, everyone in Haifa and beyond is guilty of paying taxes to the state of Israel, which uses them to build and purchase the bombs falling over Beirut. So, the question is: why do many people in Lebanon consider Hezbollah legitimate? If they didn't, Hezbollah would have had to disband long ago, or would have been wiped out by the Lebanese army: they would have no popular support, and no political wing to protect them.

 

This is what ****ing pisses me off for real. You think Israel is doing wrong and automatically you support morons who blow themselves up on a bus full with a kindergarten class. If you say that you think what Israel does equates terrorism doesnt that also imply by default that what Hezbollah/Hamas and so on are doing is also rather nasty? You know, some people can see the shades of grey and not blindly root for one side. Seeing the wrongs in what Israel is doing does not make you blind for the wrongs committed by the various arab organisations this in contrast to the refusal to see anything wrong with whatever Israel does and sheer contempt of the lives of people who happen to have arab descent shown by so many people. I and many with me may discuss the wrongs of Israel and not bring up the wrongs of the other side very often but that is because there are already so many who do that and at least I find it selfevident that it isnt a nice thing to do to lob missiles into peoples living rooms, for anyone no matter the side.

 

Very true, but you are forgetting that you have never walked a mile in the shoes of the Israeli. Telling Israel what they are doing is wrong, barbaric, mean, etc. is pointless as history hasn't shown them any better alternative. You can go back to one of my earlier posts in the Gaza thread. The only hope for peace is for the Islamists to want it. The day they grow up and stop wanting to kill or convert everyone to Islam is the day peace will break out. Until then everything else is pointless as their stated goal is Islam not peace (see my previous post for the link and quote). To think otherwise is foolishness.

I personally have always been surprised and impressed by the restraint they have shown so far. I don't know who said it but a perfect analogy would be if Mexico started launching rockets into the U.S., kidnapping citizens, killing civilians, etc. we would be at war in a matter of days.