Israel vs. Hamas

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Ok, define 'Palestinian land'. That's one of the biggest debate points out there. The lands the Palestinians want to claim are lands that they took from Israel thousands of years ago and Israel has taken from them more recently. Why should one conquest stand and the other not?

Usually, they're bulldozed because they're rubble. They're rubble because they were bombed. They were bombed because it would be a suicide mission to put troops on the ground in there, so remote attacks like bombs and missles are the only thing that can really be used.

You do realize that those walls are there to stop the terrorists from charging into Israel. There's a reason all the attacks are rocket attacks, and it isn't because rockets are cheaper than bullets.

All the land is contested. All Hamas has to do is make a claim and it's contested land. As for the 'Jewish Only' settlements, if you think a mixed settlement would end in anything other than a bloodbath, you're huffing something.

That's a good one.

Not so sure the compensation should be from Israel. I'm more leaning toward the UN. Still, there's the issue of the guaranteed violence when they return.

I don't know that much about these UN resolutions, so I won't comment.

Again, so long as security can be maintained, I'm in agreement.

More likely, it will come in the form of a true secession of those rockets and grenades. The thing to remember is that Israel isn't going to give up it's existance now that it has it again, nor is it going to give it's citizenry up for torture, rape, and murder. Most of the things you've suggested would end up in that.

Therein lies the problem. The Israelis are unwilling to trust the Palestinians to behave well (raise your hands if you blame them), and the Palestinians are unwilling to negotiate or behave until their demands are met (which would require them to behave well). Really, it's in the Palestinians' court because the only way we're ever going to get a truely peaceful solution to this is if hte Palestinians genuinely show that they're willing to give up their violent ways. Israel's only move is to commit national suicide by allowing a violent, well armed people that have sworn themselves to the death of all Jews to move about their nation freely.

 

I was worried for a moment that somebody started a poll - like: 'whom do you support?' The title is a little misleading in this regard.
I have noticed though, that whenever any government takes a hard-line stance towards anything, that it's the same board members that are quick to voice their support for these actions. Is this to offer counterbalance to the more intuitive humanitarian reactions of people?
Personally I feel for the Palestinians most, since they were robbed of their land, and are powerless to do anything but complain (and terrorize). But I don't agree with the actions of either party, since they have both gone too far in the past. Is what Israel is doing now, the right thing to do? Killing innocents to browbeat your opponent should never be the right way. The Israeli's should just enter Palestinian lands in force, and flush out the militants if you ask me. 'Bombing suspect buildings' seems very inefficient, and causes way too much collateral damage.
It looks to me that Israeli's are happy to use excessive force in these situations, and it's worrying that the entire population of the palestinian lands can now live in 2 small strips of it, which are being bombed as we speak. When does such a thing become genocide? Are the Israeli's totally clueless, by the way? It's like if Japan started nuking China, after the second world war. Looks like they're venting their anger and frustration about WW2 and the holocaust, by taking it out on people that are defenseless and had nothing to do with it. It gives them no right to do this.

 

Who robbed whom of their land?
It is all relative to how far you go into history.By the way, some Jews always stayed in this land.
The former Israel had been Jewish land for ages despise being occupied by the Romans, later the Turks and Arabs and the British.

To me it don't.They just use military force.It isn't any more cruel than what the US army did or does in Afghanistan together with its allies.
You don't see Israeli authorities laugh or enjoying themselves in this case.
On the other hand you can say this for the Palestinians.Their hatred is ideology based and reminds me of the German nazi time.We used to have children's books who described how to hate the Jew.
This is just a small example, I show you a youtube link of official Palestine TV geared towards children that shows the same happy hatred against Jews:


Therefore I find your above statement quite ironic.

You are pretty ignorant of history.After WW II most Jews returned to Israel peacefully.After it was decided by the British government that Palestina would be divided by an Arab part and A Jewish part it was the Palestinians who started war on the Jews who had to defend themselves.
Go look for Wikipedia entries for a better summary.


edit:
(I tried the youtube tags, but they don't seem to work for me.)
Thx to Blackthorne TA for clarification ^^.

 

Ok, define "American land." It's not a question of conquest but one of moral justice. Look how we destoryed an entire continent of people and stole their lands. Nevertheless, as poorly as the American Indians have it under the US authorities, the Palestininans have it even worse under Israel. That's hard to imagine.

Look, I'm a big supporter and even an admirer of Israel; I believe it is one of the best friends and allies America has, anywhere. But the policies toward the Palestinians are unjust, to say the least. I would say more, but others on this thread have already expanded on that point quite well.

 

Ok from the top, i don't have a problem with him disagreeing with israel's policies, i have a problem with his "historical bias" he is trying to put forth.

About Israel's being a democracy

Wow, just like every arab nation in the middle-east.

Hmm, just like every "chinatown" or "little italy" in most big cities. Yeah thats real harmful.

And again, so what? Every racial group feels more secure when around those that are just like them. Have you never traveled to a foriegn country were no one spoke like you or looked like you? It is a comfort to finally find someone that is similar to you.

So, according to you, a group that refuses to assimilate can be physicaly assaulted & forced out of your country? Cool, all of the mexicans that have failed to assimilate while living here can all just be rounded up & shoot then, Oh yeah, all of the muslims that look down on all other religions as false can be kicked out &/or killed too.
And the general views expressed here:

So all of the western world thinks of the jews as pests? Man, wow, . . . . . . just . . . . . . . wow.

Of course that last statement is pretty hateful to arabs too. Hmm, maybe countduckula isn't anti-semitic just a curmudgeon(he hates everybody equally).

Chandos, i know about half a dozen or so klansmen(most are ok, 1 is a really good guy & a couple are just @ssholes), i also know about the same number of guys that are in a south carolina-georgia militia that is all black(again, most are ok people with the occasional idiot thrown in).

@Amaster, bad ! bad ! Amaster!! no cookies for you today!

 

The retaliation will always be disproportionate, look at Iraq, all saddam did was slag off the US, it resulted in shock and awe.

I will refer to my earlier analogy, you dont punch a door man generally theyre bigger and tougher then you and you will get a beating.

 

Well, it will most likely be. The thing is, I don't think anyone in Israel cares that much about it being proportionate anyway. Many probably see themselves at war anyway, and at war you don't empathize much with the enemy.

Personally, I think that such overwhelming use of force does not work for Israel as it generates still more hatred for it, which easily transates into money for rockets/bombs/bullets and people willing to use them. Something like the UK's course with IRA (which I think was much more conciliatory in the last few decades) may be more appropriate, but it would take a lot more to embark on - and adhere to. Yet there is already a measure of peace between Israel and Fatah - perhaps it could work with Hamas, too.

I don't think it works very well in this case. This is not a case where Hamas started the fight (though it may be argued that they started this round) - the first blow was struck 60+ years ago, if not much earlier. In a fight between two people, eventually one would be defeated and stop fighting back. Here it might take more than judicious use of force to stop the fighting. Well, ok, wholesale genocide against the Palestinians, and subsequently most other neighboring Arabs, may work - but it would a cure worse than the disease imo.

 

That's a stupid question. As one poster pointed out, it's like asking me to define Native Indian land. All of Israel, the West Bank and Gaza is Palestinian land. Of course, I realize that it's unfeasible for the Jews to give back Israel, but they could stop annexing and building settlements on Gaza and the West Bank.

The Palestinians never 'took' the lands from Israel. Most Palestinians are semites, just like most Jews. They are nothing more than offshoots of the Caanites, who were the original inhabitants of what is known as Greater Israel. So your claim of 'conquest' goes out the window.

Of course, the point is moot. Who lived their 2,000 years ago is irrelevant. The Palestinians were living their for generations when the immigrant Jews took over. They had homes, gardens, and crops. It was *their* land. Germany wasn't allowed to annex half of Europe under the justification that it was once germanic lands, Greece isn't allowed to reclaim Constantinople from the Turks, so the Jews shouldn't be allowed to annex land from the Palestinians. It's quite simple really, even a 7 year old could grasp the principles of consistency and fair play.

What nonsense. Israel uses a lot of crappy excuses to justify demolition, from 'it's a terrorist hideout' to 'the house is built illegally'. But that never stops Jewish settlements from being erected in place of the demolished homes.

I'd buy that if the wall was built on the border between Jewish and Palestinian territory (ie. the green line). But it *wasn't*. It was built inside Palestinian territory. Why do you think that was? I'll give you a hint: What's inside my wall becomes mine.
.

So you support a Jewish only state? How incredibly *racist*. What's even worse is that if a white Gentile were to campaign in favour of a white or Gentile only state, they would be accused of being a member of Stormfront and vilified by conservatives and liberals alike.

No, sorry, the ball is in Israel's court. Israel is the one with the superior military, with the nukes, and the support of the world's only superpower. Israel is the one who continues to annex Palestinian land, bomb Palestinian children, and deny Palestinian refugees the right of return. When they give up their violent and land thieving ways, peace might be possible.

But they won't. And I hope to the bottom of my heart that Hamas hurt Israel, and badly. It would be even better if the Arab nations united and devastated the invader nation, but I doubt that will happen any time soon.

As the old saying goes: The Palestinians make achieving peace difficult, but Israel makes it impossible.

 

Yeah, umm count, they have tried that before & failed miserably.
In '48 They tried a mass attack http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab-Israeli_War
It didn't go to well for Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon and Iraq.
Then in '67 there was the six-day war http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War
That didn't go to well for Egypt, Syria & Jordan( Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Tunisia, Morocco and Algeria also sent troops) either.
Then in '73 Egypt & Jordan launched the Yom Kippur War http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_Kippur_War
Again Egypt & Jordan(with allies) didn't fair to well.

I really don't see them trying again as the Israeli Defense Force has just gotten larger and are better trained & more technologically advanced than it's enemies.

Duckula if you reseasrch the history of the region, the jewish people have as much of a claim to the land as the "palestinians" have.

Actually the so-called palestinians are a unique group even to the UN.

Even the UN has broken their own rules to make up s*** as they go along.

 

Count, you seem to want international justice. What you forget is that there is no such thing. International law is based on what promotes the trade and riches of the powerful. Did we let Germany expand in WWII? No, but that's because it would have messed up our trading and, more importantly, we won. Israel kept the lands it kept after the above wars because they won. They took the land from their neighbors (who were the aggressors, incidentally) and now it's theirs. That's the way it's always gone and that's the way it'll probably always go.

The issue with Palestine is whether or not they'll take it back. I think it's safe to say, at this point, that even given their non-conventional warfare style, they don't stand a chance.

As for the ball being in Hamas' court, my point is that, while Israel can stop trying to expand it's control of the area, it won't mean anything to Hamas or the Palestinians. What would mean something is allowing them to move freely throughout Israel. Unfortunately, that would mean letting terrorists bent on the distruction of Israel move freely throughout Israel. It'd be like giving every Al Queda member in the world US Citizenship and a free pass. The only move Israel has is suicide. Hamas, however, has the move of giving up violent methods. That's a drastic change, yes, but it isn't suicide and it isn't surrender. If Hamas waits for Israel to change, nothing can happen. If Israel waits for Hamas to change, something can happen (though it probably won't).

In all odds, though, this will keep going on until Israel kills them all. Sad, but true.

 

Lets not forget that Israel could quite easily decimate the entire area and commit genocide of the Palestinian people, they have the arsenal to wipe out anyone in the area who opposes them. The only thing stopping this is the International community, Israel holds back because of international pressure, youre not going to get any more then that.

so, the ball is in the Palestinians court.

 

Nice to see that at least one poster is honest. There is no justice for the Palestinians, which is why they are throwing stones and firing rockets at an invader nation. Which is why if Israel were wiped off the map tomorrow, I wouldn't shed a single tear.

Israel was the aggressor nation. Immigrants moved onto already occupied land, evicted the inhabitants on that land, formed a Jewish state, and then expressed their imperialistic desire to form a 'Greater Israel'. If the Chinese used similar tactics to form a Armenian state in Texas, I doubt Texans, nor the neighbouring states, would stand for it. Even if the formation of the State was sanctioned by the U.N. Hell, the U.S.A doesn't even listen to the U.N when it puts forward reasonable edicts.

Quite simply, it's not aggression to attack an invader. You might as well argue that the Native Indians were the 'aggressors' when they attempted to expel the colonialists.

So now you can read the mind of every Palestinian?

Because all Palestinians are uncompromising terrorists? And why should Israel deny justice to the Palestinians simply because a few bad apples might try to cause trouble? Isn't collective punishment a crime against humanity?

Your depiction of Palestinians as extremist terrorists is beyond the pale. How come I'm accused of anti-semitism whenever I criticise Zionist imperialism, yet no one calls posters on their blatant anti-Arabism and anti-Palestinianism?

If Hamas gives up its violent methods, then it is surrender and suicide. If no-one resists an invader, then it's game over, the Palestinian territories become vassal states akin to Vichy France.

Please don't feign sadness. It is blatantly obvious that you don't feel an iota of sympathy for the Palestinians.

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Let's not forget that the U.S.A could quite easily have decimated the entire area and committed genocide of the Native American people. Instead, they only stole their land and forced them into reservations. Ain't that nice?

 

So palastine is pissed off because European powers decided to give the Jews a homeland that they were occupying at the time. I understand that. But this continued provokation of Israel, who have the largest army and the support of a number of other powers, is only going to caus suffering to their own people. How long before Israel just doesn't stop bombing the **** out of them?

As to the Jewish Communities, I think I understand that phenomenon. When an ethnic group first settles in a new country, they tend to stick to their own, not out of xenophobia or racism, but out of comfort. They know their language, dialect, customs, food and the like. But as the community becomes settled and more comfortable in their new countries, they start making contact with other ethnic communities, and that's where the assimilation can begin. Now in Israel, when the other ethnicities around them want to kill them, there is no comfort with the surroundings, so they stay to their own kind out of fear.

so basically this will continue until the rest of the world gets pissed off and enforces a solution--by completely destroying one side of the conflict.

 

Why does that comment remind me of King George III of England?

 

What makes me laugh is that with this quote you ignored a point made in this topic. The colonists were the aggressors, but they defeated the Indians and thus the land is theirs, like Israel defeated the Arab nations in 4 wars and thus the land is theirs, just like how any other country gained land...

So they are just being forceful in moving back into lands that you just stated were theirs originally? So not really invaders, thus rocket attacks against them ARE signs of aggressions you so quickly deny. Stop being a hypocrite and make up your mind.

 

I ignore nothing. I simply dismiss irrelevancies, something which Zionists are prone to engage in.

So you admit that the establishment of the Jewish state was an act of aggression against the natives and bordering Arab Nations? Thanks, this is just too easy.

So might makes right? If Israel could get away with killing all of the remaining Palestinians and annexing Gaza, that would be OK with you?

Just like how any other country gained land centuries ago. This may surprise you, but what was permissible centuries ago is no longer permissible in todays day and age. It's also worth noting that the descendants of colonialists have been making attempts to compensate the natives whom they dispossessed. If the U.S.A and Australia are expected to return land and assist their natives, why should the Zionists be allowed to annex land and expel the natives?

Except they didn't just move back in, they also displaced and expelled the current inhabitants, who were not only the current native natives, but had been there longer than the semitic Jews. After a couple of millenia in exile, your ties to the land aren't as strong as those who have been working and living on the land for generations and generations.

They are invaders. They attempted to conquer land which they had a lesser claim to, and expelled the current native inhabitants. You might as well try arguing that the West's colonialisation of Africa was not an invasion, since their descendants all came out of Africa originally.

No, the rocket attacks are acts of self-defense against annexation, property destruction and expulsion. Even if the immigrant Jews and resident Palestinians had equal claim to the land, that would still make the Israelis the aggressors because they appropriated the land by force, and expelled another race of native inhabitants. On the other hand, the semitic Palestinians had lived alongside native Jews and Christians for centuries.

 

In your opinion, everyone else has an opinion too, anything said in a debate is relevant, dont be so narrow minded to think that only what you think is relevant counts.

dont pick out a piece of someone's post and then proclaim victory. That comment refered to the colonization of America, no situation is identical.

Isnt it? why? back that up.
its happening all over the world all the time. It can be seen across Africa, and even in smaller scales locally where a land owner battles with environmentalists over what is public land and what is private land.

lets see the US government give back Georgia to the Creek, Tennessee and western North Carolina to the Cherokee and Ohio and Mississippi to the Chickasaw, aint going to happen, any compensation to the natives will be simple rubbish gestures to make the government look like they care.

I would also like to point out that American natives arent fireing rockets into Washington DC.

Yeah.... the inhabitants which just welcomed them home with open arms.

Its interesting that youve just described squatters.

No, its the sign of a violent society. Id also like to draw attention to the demonstrations in the UK, which turned into riots and all of those arrested (10) were of Palestinian background. I was watching some of the footage the other day, the rioters looked like terrorists with their faces covered throwing anything they could at police- but hey, thats how civilised people behave, right?

 

Count, you misunderstood much of my post (possibly on purpose). When I said there is no such thing as international justice, I meant just that: the concept is a non-sequitor. Nations gain land by taking it from other nations. If other nations try to take it back, it isn't 'justice', it's retaliation and reclimation. Nothing wrong with that, per se, but nothing right either. Hitler was evil in WWII because of what he did to the Jews and others, not because he tried to expand German power. Germany wasn't evil in WWI at all, they just lost. Most recently, in the area being discussed right now, Israel took land from others while the others were trying to take land from Israel. Israel won. If you want to say Israel was bad and mean for taking the land, then you have to say Egypt and the others were bad and mean for trying to take their land back, and that the UN was bad and mean for taking the land in the first place and giving it to the Jews (what you often seem to forget is that the Jews didn't set up modern Israel, the UN did), and then you have to admit that the Romans were bad and mean for taking it from the Jews two thousand years ago, and that the Jews were bad and mean for taking it from the Cannanites, and so on back to the first time man fought over those lands. And at that point you'd have exhaused any ability to track who translates to who in the modern day by several thousand years. This is why international justice doesn't exist. There's no real way to make things just, only ways to get revenge for one group or another. You seem to have happily sided with the Palestinians. Others have done so with Israel.

Perhaps the analogy would be better if I said it was to the entire Arab world, of which a great many (in shear number, not proportions) are known terrorists, a great many more probable ones, and a great many more than both of those together are unwilling to live by our laws.

In other words, no, not all Palestinians are terrorists, but a great many of them are. To ignore this is idiocy of the highest degree.

Here is where you're so wrong. Resistance is different from terrorist attacks. The best strategy for Hamas to actually win concessions is to give up violent methods, adopt non-violent methods, court respect with the international media, gain international support, and use that to pressure Israel. Follow MLK, Ghandi, and other widely respected (even by their enemies) resistance leaders. Instead, Hamas continues to target civilian populations, use their own population as a shield, and basically kill indiscriminately. This indicates to me that their real goal isn't to gain concessions from Israel, but just to hate and kill them.

Please don't think you know me. I am saddened by any loss of life. Even Hamas, even Al Qaeda, even Bin Laden himself. At times such losses may be necessary to prevent greater losses, but I am still saddened.