Islam?

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First off, to hopefully avoid a flame attack, I believe that the majority of Muslims are good people who want to live in peace.

That said:

There is quite a bit of rhetoric in the Quoran about peace and understanding, however there is a significant amount of language that talks about enslavement of infidels, and the killing and disfigurement of the same. Most religions that have been around for a few centuries had periods of violence that was committed in their name, however Islam differs in this realm in that it was actually founded in violence, where most major religions were founded on the belief of passive resistance.

Unfortunately we are judged by those who are most visible in our population. The fact that moderate Muslims do not police this behavior is scary to the western world. We in the western world do not believe that there is any insult that warrants such a response. This response is simply uncivilized, and the moderate majority of Muslim people have to use social pressure to eliminate this type of behavior. If they do not then the rest of us are left with nothing to believe other than the moderates are providing tacit approval, if not direct support of this behavior while they stand back and claim outrage (e.g. plausible deniabilility).

 

The thing that strikes me is just how many religious leaders in Islam seem to be looking for any excuse to be insulted, so they can invoke all of those slogans. Sure, every group is going to be thin-skinned and humorless about something, but it seems to me that Islam is more hypersensitive than most.

 

im sorry but anyone who finds its okay to kill people over drawings, no mather how insulting they where has no home in a western society, with its freedom of speech and freedom of religion.

and trying to defend it with what christians did 500years ago is bs. move with the times.
the fact is that the twelve cartoonist has to live in constant protection because of this, even though hardly any of the drawings where offencive, hell some of them didn't even feature the profet. the imams from my country chose to go to middle-eastern countries and lie, first of they said all the pictures belittled the profet, secondly they showed a picture of bearded frenchman with a pig-nose telling the locals that this was a dane playing the profet (the man was french and was participating in a local festival in southern france)

i lost most of my respect for modern muslims after this.

 

@Equester: Why should you lose respect for all Muslims just because a few members of their clergy lied to them? That's like losing respect for all Christians because of something a guy like Pat Robertson did.

 

What's ironic about the 'get ready for the real holocaust' poster is that, um, if there ever is a repeat of that sorta thing in Europe, it's gonna be Muslims on the receiving end. Looking at that photo I can't help but imaging a Jew in Germany circa 1930 holding a similar sign.

Point being it's not a good idea for a minority to adopt a them v us approach, because if the majority starts feeling likewise, guess who's gonna lose?

 

Scary stuff. If Europe doesn't return to its Christian roots, that's what she will get.

 

Again, Im going to say this. 500 years ago Christians would act in a similar way to how these Muslims are acting. Think about the Crusades against not just Islam, but also against heretics and pagans who lived in Europe. Think about the Inquisition. Think about all the wars in Europe about whether the Christians should be subject to the papacy etc.

Anyone who thinks that the way these minority Muslims are acting is 'terrible' needs to look in their own past to see how their ancestors treated people who did comparable things to them. I can guarantee that not one person here of European descent can say that their ancestors didnt involve themselves in hate crimes against Jews, Roma, Sinti, 'heretics', Catholics/Protestants (depending on which side you were on etc).

Sure these minority groups 'may' have access to nukes, but then again they 'may' not. Think about what the European newspaper editors did and put it in context. The West may not be so zealous about Christianity, but in the Islamic world they often are. I admire them for being zealous about their beliefs, and what this minority did is justified because it was sacreligious what the newspaper editors did.

 

Comparing timelines unhinged from, or ignoring the march to and through, modernity is nonsensical.

There is more Muslim extremism now than there was prior to the 20th century. Perhaps there's a reason for that that doesn't boil down to 'Islam hates freedom'. I'd argue so, certainly. Colonization tends to have nasty aftereffects.

Chev, I have to ask: why is the answer to religious fundamentalism a different stripe of religious fundamentalism?

 

Nat, personal opinions aside, you raise a fair point, albiet one that's been raised before, about residents of glass houses.
However, I agree with AM - is it fair to be comparing the relatively unsophisticated beliefs that prevailed 500 odd years ago with what occurs in todays supposedly multicultural and tolerent society?
No matter how you put it, it really doesnt stand to trial that this sort of behaviour is 'right' in todays context.

As for being 'justified', as NOJ has mentioned, Christains havnt been known to threaten grievous bodily harm, etc, to the makers of the Simpsons or the like, who are known to often use Jesus in a similar manner - why should this vocal minority be given greater lease because of some largely harmless social commentary?

 

Rhythm and Faraaz: Thanks for the reassurance that they are the minority of Muslims.

As for the Crusades, The first one was ordered before 1100 AD, and the last one ended around 1453 or so if my history is correct. If the Crusades and Spanish inquisition were "growing pains" of Christianity, then the modern terrorism is a growing pain of Islam. Meaning that if the pattern repeats, they'll be irrelevent in another 500 years.

 

Youre right there Gnarf, in 500 or so years, Id say that Islam would be where Christianity is today. Perhaps in 500 years it will be a different religion that will be the 'bad guys'. We just dont know, and because we dont know, we shouldnt get so worked up about what the minority do these days. There will always be a minority voicing their opinion, regardless of if its religion, or freedom of speech, or pornography, or cannabis law reform etc etc. You need to take in their side of the argument though to see where they are coming from to get a balanced perspective of the situation. Unbiased opinions are not worth anything.

 

I cannot agree. Look at the Ottoman empire around the time of the Protestant reformation. You find it was vastly more tolerant than the Holy Roman Empire and the Catholic Church (though it wasn't called that then) were. Islam was, in point of fact, a great deal 'nicer' and more 'civilized' than Christianity was for a fairly long period of time; the Renaissance drew heavily on Islamic scholarship. I repeat: Comparing timelines unhinged from, or ignoring the march to and through, modernity is nonsensical. .


The Crusades were not growing pains of Christianity. Islamic terrorism is not a growing pain of Islam; it is a reaction to colonialism, imperialism, and hegemony.

It was Europe, and later America, who were largely responsible for the chain of events that led us to where we are today. It was the west that was--and remains--largely responsible for the phenomenon of Islamic extremism. No other explanation fits the historical data.

 

because after their bluff where called, after muslims in denmark knew that it was a lie, they still chose to follow them

you think its justifieble to kill people over drawings? drawings except for one or two, that wasn't even bad? goodbye freedom of speech i guess, but then again religius zeal is better then freedom

there is no way it was justified, the muslims in denmark chose to live in a country with freedom of speech and religion, that means that any religion can be made fun, no special rules for any religion.
secondly if you actually took a good look on all 12 drawings you will notice that the majority makes fun of the fear of drawing muhammed, not muhammed himself.

http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/jyllands-posten_cartoons/

here is the drawings and an articel about some of the lovely lies told by the imams the insure a wider hate vs Denmark and the west

 

Thats a good point...they 'chose' to live in Denmark, a liberal country with freedom of speech. I guess they need to leave their zeal behind when chosing to live in a country where their beliefs will probably be offended, unintentionally of course, since it is freedom of speech etc.

 

Indeed. This is my main problem with the whole issue. When you go to a country and want to make it your home, you should have respect for your host culture. I could understand it if Islam was put in a completely different position than Christianity, but I'm not sure that'd be the case - I think a lot of cartoonists wouldn't mind lampooning Jesus or even God (especially the latter appears every now and then.)

I guess the religious issue with images of holy people in Islam might have contributed to that. I thought that there wasn't a big problem outside of mosques, but I guess it could apply to Mohammad. Still, it's a cartoon, for crying out loud. Many denominations of Christianity don't have icons anyway.

 

You're right. Let's not apply any double standards. "The crusades were also terrible."

 

I agree, you cannot be responsible for your ancestor's deed. So if we follow that logic, every german person born after the 3rd Reich are responsible for its terrible deed? I live in North America, where my ancestor probably killed a lot of Native over territory, am I responsible for it? Absolutely not.

Islamic fundamentalism is nothing more than the sole way these countries found not to loose their culture over western colonization. I cannot agree with violence, but I can certainly understand the pain middle east suffered from past western territorial wars. The west is to blame for situation. I condem violent action, but I do not condem the religion itself, nor should anybody.

And my I remember you that Islam, Christianity, and even Judaism shares a lot of common thing? Many histories in the old testament is found in the Qu'ran, like Noah and even Jesus is mentioned in the Qu'ran! And they all provide the idea of « one omnipotent god ».

 

In your attempts to justify madness you have forgotten: This minority has killed hundreds of Europeans these past few years.

We have every right to get worked up.

I cant help but wonder at the cynism - and, frankly, question the sanity - of someone encouraging the would-be victims to try and comprehend their murderers already.

But who am I to talk. Those Christians of Europe get a taste of their own medicine. Karma, right?

And now you may continue to admire homocidal elements.

 

yes they damn straight have to, if you want to live in a country, you follow that countries laws. but since you admire fanatics who kills people over drawings, i hardly think you will undestand this.

the alternative is that we let every major religion/beliefe system kill people who offend them