Is this cheesy

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Earl Grey - we can accept killing in this fantasy setting because :

a) fighting orcs/gnolls/bandits/evil wizards will, in the long run, make the world a better place.

b) fighting epitomes of evil, such as demons and dragons (and debatably, drow), make the world a better place.

Killing an innocent person in cold blood usually doesn't make the world a better place.

In a real, hardcore, fantasy setting (think Brothers Grimm), there are noble acts and ignoble acts. Killing the evil wolf face-to-face is noble. Jumping out of the shadows and stabbing the nice king ignoble. And not very nice either.

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On the topic, anyways:

Good thieves can certainly steal. Even lawful good thieves. Let's the suppose the following scenario:

Chaotic Good Thief Melissa is stealing a holy sword from a big dragon. The big dragon is so big, no army in the world can kill it. But it's very lazy, so a sneaky girl like Melissa could take it, and hand it over to a paladin (or just use it herself). The sword might be used to slay the dragon, or be used to wage war against demons, either of which is a good thing (in terms of alignment).

Now let's replace Chaotic Good Thief Melissa with a Lawful Good Paladin Mary. Mary learned how to sneak around, and is smart (although she is very brave) to not face a dragon she can't defeat in combat. Instead, she just goes and plucks the sword from the dragon's hoard when it's asleep.

Now what's not Lawful Good about this? This sword might unite the nations of the world, certainly a lawful act. It might go on to fight evil, certainly a good act. A noble paladin might use it in crusades, certainly a lawful good act.

As for vendors, just replace "big nasty dragon" with "lousy, greedy, evil, merchant who beats people up for money." You get the idea.

As I remember, nothing was said about stealing in the description of Lawful Good. It might be an irregular thing to do, but no one said you couldn't do it. Which is the idea that Thieves can't be LG is silly.

 

@Rastor - you're right; my mistake. It just never occurs to me to make a thief lawful, since I am definitely going to be using him/her to steal (which of course was part of your original point).

@Oaz
I agree that the example of stealing from a dragon might make sense, as long as you were going to kill him anyway. However, stealing from a vendor, no matter how nasty, is IMHO still a no-no for a lawful character. A lawful character recognises the importance of laws and would report the vendor to the proper authorities, but he would not take the law into his own hands or break the law himself by stealing - two wrongs don't make a right.

[ September 26, 2003, 16:23: Message edited by: Splunge ]

 

not allowing a theif to be lawful good makes sense to me. Think about it being a theif means stealing,and backstabbing, both of which normally dont appeal to those of LG alignment, and besides that being a theif means you steal which is unlawful.

@trimm
i can think of a number of books/true stories where there was an evil person in a generally good party I.E> the avatar trilogy in the first and second book. cyric was with midnight and kelomver, cyric was chaotic evil while the others were good

 

But what happens when the merchant, is actually, say a demon? The demon wouldn't recognize the city guards or the nobles, as it's simply not part of its society. What happens then?

In my opinion, this is one of the silly things about the descriptions of alignment in Baldur's Gate II. I think that if a person is stealing from the demon, he/she is doing an act in favor of law and good (if this demon is chaotic evil) by killing the demon, regardless of whether he/she did so with or without theft.

 

Oaz, I’m not sure I understand what you’re getting at with your 1st paragraph,; the fact that the demon doesn’t recognise the guards doesn’t prevent the guards from taking action.

You’re 2nd paragraph, however, seems to be confirming exactly what I said, ie if you’re going to kill an enemy anyway, then stealing its stuff is OK. Of course, if the enemy hasn’t gone hostile, then a lawful character IMO would obey the law and not kill it (nor steal from it), even if it is a demon, since it hasn’t attacked you (yet). I don’t see anything silly about the alignment descriptions; a lawful character obeys the law, plain and simple.

 

LAW means the rights of the group outweigh the rights of the individual.

CHAOS means the the rights of the individual outweigh the rights of the group.