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Intelligent Design in Iowa State University

Discussion in 'Alley of Dangerous Angles' started by teekc, Aug 28, 2005.

  1. NonSequitur Gems: 19/31
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    I just wish more people would see it like this...

    Which comes first? Well... neither.

    Both science and religion have extremely valuable things to teach us. I would argue that human existence is hollowed for the lack of one over the other - there is no need for the continuation of a false contest over "who's right". In the end, it's a lot of time spent achieving nothing; proponents at both ends won't budge, and the average person will be sick of the BS to-and-fro and will simply tune it out.

    Religion can provide us with a sense of purpose, a set of beliefs about how we should behave, what is "good", what is appropriate, and how we can live our lives (irrespective of its individual theology). It can't give more than a reference to the supernatural to explain disasters, or other occurences that aren't covered by its codex.

    Science can explain a great deal; it can give us insights into the nature of the universe, the manner in which phenomena previously attributed to spiritual or divine manifestations, even a critical method of inquiry, experimentation and deduction. It can't tell you how to be a good person, or how you should treat your fellow inhabitants of Earth.

    In short: each have their place. Science belongs in a classroom. So too does religion (or at the very least, a discussion of it as a means to interpret the world; I view secular philosophies as "religions minus God" - if you don't believe me, look at Dick Cheney). However, those are two wholly separate classrooms. There's no need for one to intrude on the other, and certainly no cause to claim that one is invalid.
     
  2. Late-Night Thinker Gems: 17/31
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    Just to give a heads up: There is a trial taking place in Dover, Pennsylvania right now about the legality of teaching ID in public classrooms.

    A couple articles:

    MSNBC

    NY Times

    I wish I understood the laws surrounding the case. The overwhelming consensus opinion amongst biologists is that ID is not a valid scientific theory, yet I am not sure that that fact in and of itself prevents public school boards from deciding to teach their students sub-standard pseudo-science. The judge's decision may be regardless of the scientific merit of ID.
     
  3. Ragusa

    Ragusa Eternal Halfling Paladin Veteran

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    One has to be precise here.
    • There is no problem teaching ID in public classrooms
    • There is a problem teaching it in science classes
    • As ID is not science but more of a scholary enterprise it has no place in science classes
    • It has, however, and legitimately, a place in philosophy and religion classes
    • And teaching it there should be absolutely no problem
    But that is not what the ID discussion means to the Christian Right and those at the Discovery Institute. They insist on it being teached as science for reasons that are 'sachfremd', that is, they have nothing to do with scholary or science.

    ... maybe this link sheds some light on why IDists do what they do:
    They couldn't be clearer. Their approach is also called the 'wedge strategy'.

    That's what it is about: It's about changing a worldview, not about actually teaching an allegedly discriminated 'alternate science'. It's force-feeding religion into science classes.

    ID is just a means to a different end: The Culture War of America's right to roll back scientific materialism and it's expression liberalism.
     
  4. Late-Night Thinker Gems: 17/31
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  5. Bion Gems: 21/31
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    I doubt that the ID proponents will be swayed by anyone with a PhD, whether in biology or theology. I think even the professional theologians look too "intellectual" (in the perjorative sense) for the ID guys, many of whom would claim a "personal relationship with Jesus Christ" that trumps all academic knowledge.
     
  6. Late-Night Thinker Gems: 17/31
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  7. Sticker Gems: 9/31
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    :lol: That's a classic quote!
     
  8. Late-Night Thinker Gems: 17/31
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    Apparently, the authors of the Dark Ages era textbook just changed the word "creationism" to "intelligent design".

    MSNBC Article


    Why don't religious organizations leave biologists alone and concentrate their efforts upon the real enemy, geologists? I mean, clearly people who study the location of Hell are influenced by the Devil.
     
  9. Sir Fink Gems: 13/31
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    Do the ID people ever stop to think about the sort of Pandora's Box they're opening? All this "both sides" crap really irks me -- there are far more than 2 sides to it.

    If we grant them that there is some Higher Power or Intelligence that created everything, what sort of being could it be? Couldn't it be more than one being? Could it be 1,000 beings? Could these beings be aliens from another dimension? Could they be female? (gasp!) Could they have 3 heads and green skin?

    Then there's the why? Why did this being create the universe? And why did this being make the universe such a crappy place to live; where meteors randomly fly through space, sometimes smashing into Earth and killing billions of living things; a universe where entropy rules; where we all rot, age, struggle and die?

    These are all profound questions that every human should ask themselves, but we get so caught up in this "both sides" debate, pitting Pat Robertson against some nerdy college prof.
     
  10. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    And that IMO is really the main flaw in the ID argument: The false dichotomy. They seem to think that by pointing out gaps etc. in the prevailing theory that by default their idea is the only choice left.
     
  11. Sir Fink Gems: 13/31
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    I think most creationists would rather attack evolution than defend creationism. Have you ever heard some of their whacky ideas? e.g. the earth is only 6,000 years old; claims about fossilized human and dinosaur footprints alongside one another (Fred Flintstone taking Dino out for a walk.... ?) Silly stuff.
     
  12. Death Rabbit

    Death Rabbit Straight, no chaser Adored Veteran Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    An interesting bit I read today that may add to the discussion...
    From here: http://slate.msn.com/id/2128238/entry/2128240/?nav=tap3
     
  13. Late-Night Thinker Gems: 17/31
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    Evolution is true: tiny undetectable angels selectively mutate genes at the behest of God. An interesting question: How many angels can dance upon a nucleotide?
     
  14. dmc

    dmc Speak softly and carry a big briefcase Staff Member Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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  15. SatansBedFellow Gems: 7/31
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    A question for our American posters: Are there any figures as to how many Americans believe in "design"? (I refuse to prefix the word with "intelligent".) ;) I once read that the richer among them are building creationist museums showing brontosauruses happily living alongside Adam and Eve; has anyone ever visited one of these? (I believe there is one in Kentucky.) :lol:
     
  16. AMaster Gems: 26/31
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    mm, no, because if I did, I might not be able to resist the temptation to spray paint Eve into Steve.
     
  17. Late-Night Thinker Gems: 17/31
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    Don't underestimate Americans: The entire school board which started the whole ID fiasco in Dover, Pennsylvania was outed, even the ones whom voted against but still allowed. Despite the volume of religious extremists, most people in America are firm believers in the complexity of nature.

    It wasn't all made to be understandable by an average three year old.
     
  18. Fabius Maximus Gems: 19/31
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    IIRC, about 60 percent of the americans believe in the creation myth.

    I don't know about ID:
     
  19. Late-Night Thinker Gems: 17/31
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    What does "creation myth" mean? Do you mean just "created" or "literal translation of the Bible"?
     
  20. Fabius Maximus Gems: 19/31
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    The myth that god created the world in six days. I could be wrong about the number, though.
     
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