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Immigration/Integration - politics, problems, potential solutions

Discussion in 'Alley of Lingering Sighs' started by dmc, Nov 7, 2005.

  1. NonSequitur Gems: 19/31
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    I'll look at the last one when I have a bit more time - I'll start with the most recent one.

    Hmm... interesting, if true. Of course, I have to take their word for it, since there's nothing but allegations there, rather than evidence. Glad to see that FOX News isn't the only one pulling the "according to many experts" line without actually having ANYONE listed. If they're so authoritative, and so certain, why aren't they named?

    I went a bit further, though, and took a gander at the root site. It was, depressingly, more of the same.

    Really? Why not blame unemployment on it as well? "Militant" anything is undesirable, in my opinion. Of course, this seems to promulgating a national supremacist doctrine tied into religion - I don't think I need to expand on that criticism.

    Uh-huh... and I'm supposed to believe this isn't propaganda? Not a shred of evidence, or anything other than vague references to Nazis, godless outside forces and anti-Russian neo-pagans, but this is still a respectable site that I should feel a need to discredit? Blind Freddy could see the holes in this, Svy!

    Oh yes, because it was all a leftist NWO plot! [/sarcasm]

    Hang on, I forgot - this was inevitable, wasn't it? The whole racial-mixing thing is doomed to fail every time, and the conservatives told us so, did they? Seriously, Svy, sometimes I wonder if I give you too much credit - that allegation borders on paranoia. And isn't it funny how actually living in a diverse society and interacting with "those people" on a daily basis gives one a much less cloistered perspective?

    I don't see them as devoid of morality. I see them as frequently being devoid of critical appraisal of their own position and/or of the necessary perspective to be determining guidelines and rules for other people's lives. There are exceptions, true; as a general cautionary rule, it's far better to be careful than sorry.

    Uh... I was actually getting at the basic stuff about not having anyone come in arbitrarily and screw your life up, putting food on the table, finding comfort and satisfaction in life, et cetera. In short, the essential stuff. The fact that we both like Baldur's Gate is pretty tangential, and wasn't what I had in mind.

    Of course, to do that, you actually have to look past the differences. Everyone has their own life, their own story, their own hopes and dreams - and for most people, in my experience, they're really not so different irrespective of culture or ethnicity. I can appreciate that it's harder to do when you don't grow up doing it.

    Besides which, I thought you were familiar with Durkheim's theories of collective consciousness in primitive and advanced/complex societies. I would have believed them to be a worthwhile study, since the arguments made certainly stand up when applied to contemporary Australian society (and elsewhere, I'm certain).

    I won't, but to me, this statement just demonstrates how little you really know about the world outside your own borders, Svy. I'm at least willing to admit my ignorance. Sure, Australia has only been settled for just under 218 years; that's time enough for certain distinct cultural practices and identities to form. Thankfully, it hasn't been enough to inspire such solidly-entrenched ethno-cultural bigotry as can be witnessed elsewhere, since most of us recognise it for the BS it is.

    Well, if that's the way you feel, you can have it, as far as I'm concerned. That you see anything other than homogeneity as a deadly threat is all I really needed to know.
     
  2. Bion Gems: 21/31
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    In the US, probably half the people with Irish last names have some Italian blood and visa versa. I myself am a mix of English, German, French, what was once called "Scotts-Irish," and, if one family legend is true, a tiny drop of Cherokee. In the US, the Dutch and English used to complain about the arrival of Germans, before they as a group complained about the Irish, before they as a group complained about the Italians, before they as a group complained about the Poles, etc etc etc, up to the current point when all of these people, whether they have Dutch, English, German, Irish, Italian, Polish, etc last names all consider themselves "White" and complain about the Hispanics. After 9/11, I read reports of how some disadvantaged Blacks in NYC felt finally like they were included as full Americans, because the could complain along with the Whites about the Arabs (meanwhile, sad to say, all the Arab restaurants suddenly sprouted a disproportunate number of US flags...)

    Miscegenation? I say bring it on...
     
  3. Nakia

    Nakia The night is mine Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    Yay Bion!
    I have English, Welsh, Scot, Irish, German and Cherokee ancestry that I know about. I also have Italian and Mexican relatives.

    Although born in the back-woods of Kentucky I was exposed to a lot of Europeans and others. Living in New York city I met even more people. Learned new things and discovered new foods.

    Humans may have a varied ethnic and culture background but there is only one race... the Human Race .
     
  4. NonSequitur Gems: 19/31
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    @ Bion, Nakia: :thumb:

    Historically, I'm a mix of Scottish and English (and apparently a dash of French as well), although I average out as a fifth-generation migrant, IIRC. Technically, my mother's side of the family is descended from the clan McRae, so I do have an "ancestral home" - hell, we even have a family castle (although any such claim by me would make even the most tenuous justifications of sanguinary right to entitlement used in the Middle Ages seem like a bomb-proof shelter in comparison).

    Which, coupled with my English heritage, means that logically I should be my own natural enemy...
     
  5. Nakia

    Nakia The night is mine Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    :lol: NonSequitur. Yea, when I get up in the morning I have to decide who I fight with this day.

    Oh, yes..having English ancestry means I have Norman French (vikings) Anglo-Saxon and Danes as well as the original Britons for ancestors.

    Let he/she who prove they are of a 'pure race' cast the first stone.

    Me, I'm just purely human.
     
  6. NonSequitur Gems: 19/31
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    Nakia, I was thinking of one of Groundskeeper Willie's comments in The Simpsons...

    "Brothers and sisters are natural enemies, like Englishmen and Scots... or Welshmen and Scots... or Japanese and Scots... or Scots and other Scots! Damned Scots! They ruined Scotland!"
     
  7. The Magpie

    The Magpie Balance, in all things Veteran

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    Surely they'd be too inbred to be able to throw properly? :shake:

    Being English means that I'm naturally a mongrel, with my father's half originally coming from Essex (I've always wanted a Ford Cortina with giant fluffy dice...) and my mother's from the Westcountry. Which means I've probably got DNA from pretty much everywhere in continental Europe in here somewhere.

    In any case, it's not like successive waves of immigration (read: invasion) by Romans, Vikings, Danes, Saxons etc. etc. etc. did us any harm. In fact, if you think about modern history, arguably the two most "successful" nations have been the most ethnically diverse: the British Empire, and the American Empire. ;)
     
  8. Fabius Maximus Gems: 19/31
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    Apart from being partly sorbic, I might have had some danish, dutch, polish, baltic and french ancestors.

    Even most of the russian are probably a mixture. If they have no skandinavian blood in them, they have at least some asian.
    They did have a minor mongolian problem a few centuries back. ;)
     
  9. Iago Gems: 24/31
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    Coming from a traditional old-school immigration country, I guess my ancestry is a mixture of various European, a little bit of various Asian and a little bit of various African and definitely too little Lombard.
     
  10. Svyatoslav Gems: 12/31
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    That is what I have said. They came recently. They dont count for any successful XVIII century integration policy.

    He is a scholar.
    Your - germans - actions are certainly not of one who doesnt mind.

    Giving up his surname... Certainly Poland is not losing someone who is worth a thing.

    I have a Sorbian pal, and he has a few things to say about your non assimilation policy... Schools being closed - and not for the lack of pupils. Recently, a journalist from Deustchwelle, Peter Philipp, had a few not so nice things to say about Sorbians as well.

    As long as you agree their young age should give them no privilegies, we will reach a common ground.

    Exactly. Anything more than that are luxuries.

    The immigrants have a higher responsability. The French state can not fully change in order to attend these people's expectations.
    The French state can help somehow, but the immigrants have to work hard themselves, and not expect things come easy for them.

    I am not too sure about that. There are people who dont view themselves within society everywhere.

    Do you have some sort of source for this? Are you telling me immigrants are not responsable for most crimes in your country?

    If you dont believe to be right, what is the whole point of believing at all?
    ----------------------------------------------------

    Please do so, because that one is the one which is specific to Srebrenica.

    Well, I posted this link for you to see about the churches destroyed by the poor albanians, but since you decided to reply to some parts of it, so be it.
    Lets start up with your big hipocrisy, and I quote:

    Is that clear enough or do I need to explain? Regardless, the purpose of the article was not to do an in-deepth analysis of the situation, just bring in some general information about it. However, if you do want sources and names, I can provide you thousands, but you will have a hard time refuting them all, so I wouldn't bother.
    Second of all, these churches were all destroyed, and that is just fact- here it is a different link http://www.spc.org.yu/Vesti-2004/pogrom.html - as for the allegations of drug dealing, everyone knows about that in the Balkans, it is a known fact albanians deal with drugs and prostitution. If had any idea about the situation in the Balkans - as you claim you have - you would not be in denial.

    Except that you know nothing about Russia and shouldn't say. You have no idea how Russian Culture and Nation is tied with Orthodoxy. I wont bother, really...

    Again, make sure you know what you are talking about. There are "Russian Nationalists" who are into neo-paganism and nazism - these were the ones giving the nazi salute on that rally, which I know for a fact. It is to this fact the article is reffering itself. Of course you would not know. It is also claiming the revival of the Russian state should be grounded on the Russian Orthodox Church, which is the foundation of Russian Culture and Nation. There is no need for empirical evidence to claim this. :rolleyes:

    Yes, because it is exactly people like me who pushed for this, right?!

    Yes, the conservatives told you so, and as far as I can observe, it is failing. I fail to see where paranoia fits in.
    As for your own society, before I say anything about it, what is the % of non-Whites? When most of them came in etc?

    This is an opinion. I could claim just the same thing about people allegedly "rational" and equilibrate.

    This is so basic I had no idea this was what you were talking about. However, I believe in higher things than putting food on the table and finding comfort in life.
    The common grounds I refer myself to are the ones shared by people from the same Culure/ethnicity. Those are the ones I am concerned about.


    Wait wait, just because you dont have this solid ethno-cultural identity, it does not mean it is bigotry and BS. What about being critical? You are just letting your passions poison your tone. It almost reeks with envy.

    Yes. Russia be the Russian land.
    ---------------------------------------------------

    Russians have no Scandinavian blood, that is BS! As for mongolian admixture, I wont say no Russian has a tidbit of mongolian blood, but from all the genetical studies I have seen - adding to historical analysis - all I can say is that it is so minor it is irrelevant. You are the ones putting words into my mouth. I never said Russians have no foreing blood at all, and that having the least of it is the end of the world. But the ammount of non-Slavic blood is rather minor, and most certainly, having a bit of non-Russian blood is no argument to make Russia into a multicultural society. It goes a far way from A to B.
     
  11. Fabius Maximus Gems: 19/31
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    As I said: I did not find any other source.

    Oh, please. Are you a communist? I don't think so. So don't generalize and call us all nazis.

    Really? Well, I'm not into saxonian politics that much, apart from being interested in the neo-nazi resurgance there.

    And I'm interested in this report. When was it broadcasted? Maybe it's transscripted on their homepage.

    I don't think they expect it to be easy. I think they expect something apart from being under pressure. It's all about chances. Do you think there are 40% jobless young people because they dont want to work?

    Yeah, but do they have some other means of identifiacting themselves? Like not being from another country?

    If you can read german, I might find something.

    Er, yes? Indigenous germans are the majority. The - not really meanigful - overall crime statistic says, that 'foreigners' commit about 1/4 of all crimes.

    To claim that one is right does not mean that one has the whole truth.

    I think this point is getting a little bit too philosophical.

    Hey, even the scholars who refuse that the varangians ruled the rus admit, that both peoples mingled.

    Then is the irrelevance of non-slavic blood no justification for a single-cultured russia.

    Immigration of other cultures just happens. You don't just "make" your country multicultural as if it was the intention.
     
  12. Svyatoslav Gems: 12/31
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    Tell me if you ever do, because I might be interested.

    No, I am not. Haha. Anyway, I did not call you all nazis. Why would I? Even before nazism your Nation has shown only contempt and hostility towards Slavs, so why would I need to bring out nazism, since any historical period would do?

    I might check out these reports for you. Just give me some time to pull something out.

    No, I am sure some want to work, but yet many others just want to live have it easy and mess things up. Want you or not, some of them do not have the psychological/cultural background to live in a Western state.

    Well, some use drugs or get into alcohol, hardly anything that would give them identity/psychological support.

    No, I dont. Dont bother. I dont think it is absurd to claim there are violence related problems within poor areas anyway.
    Just be careful with those generalisations. Relating poverty with violence and banditry is an grave offense to the biggest part of poor people, whom are honest.

    Sorry, I should had specifically mentioned I was interested in proportional numbers.

    Yes, it is. It is a bit off topic as well, so I will leave at that.

    Even if they did, just the numerical evidence, plus the fact it was so long ago, would ensue their genetical contribution to Russian ethnicity is minimally irrelevant.

    The homogeneity of Russian Nation means just that. I was countering the notion that Russians having a very small ammount of non-Slavic blood is reason to classify Russia as multicultural society, and thus, making it even more multicultural the "natural" outcome.
    Regardless, the justification for a Russian-cultured - as opposed to your single-cultured idea - Russia is self determination, and the God-given right to self rule and self identity. The fact Russia is over milleania years old, and Russians payed with blood to ensure their own existence as a people and Culture are reasons enough.

    When the pro immigration policy was established in the West, it was a clear intention to make it a multicultural place.
    Multiculturalism is not as natural as you claim it is, which is not to say there is no interaction between different people. It is just that this intercation, through out History, is far more subtle and soft than what is being attempted nowadays.
    Just as a general side note though, I see many people boosting their mixed background as a big deal. Well, it is good these people are proud of their mixed ancestry, but it is just ludicrous and straight faced that these same people want to push it into others. That would be something only someone dissatisfied with his own situation would do.
    It is not because some people are mongrels, that everyone else should be.
    For some being rootless might be a positive thing, for me it is not.
     
  13. Carcaroth

    Carcaroth I call on the priests, saints and dancin' girls ★ SPS Account Holder

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    I have absolutely no idea as to my own ancestry, other than the majority is probably caucasian (OK, meaningless description, basically I'd class myself as white though I tan well, I have dark brown hair and brown eyes which go green in bright light)

    As I don't know, and can't honestly say I care about my own ancestry, or when my ancestors came to England, I see no reason why I should care about someone elses. It would actually be incredibly hypocritical if I did.

    OK, that probably makes me rootless. I'm not sure how roots or lack of them can be classed as either positive or negative. Svy, can you put into words exactly what positiveness you get from your roots? I apologise, but the only thing I can imagine is that it offers some kind of self assurance boost. Drawing strength from your History or some such thing?
     
  14. Svyatoslav Gems: 12/31
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    Because I think a Nation - and people - with roots is a healthy one. It creates an organic - as opposed to artificial - cohesion and sense of belonging/sharing amongst people. It is far easier to face hardships when you have a root and ground to support you.
    Not only that, but a people sharing a common root is harder to be defeated, and is more keen to preserving their culture and traditions.
    Being rootless sometimes also accounts for some real identity crisis with some people, which makes them searching desperately elsewhere for this sense of belonging, which, more often than not, might ensue some very bad results, such as fanatically holding yourself into a group of people - which can be as simple as a sharing an irrational love for a football team, or as complex as being part of a not so "healthy" organisation. Just as much, rootless people are more prone to giving up in face of bad times, or wasting their lives with drugs or alcohol.
    I am trying to give you some pragmatic reasons - and if you want I might try to give you some more - but there is also the "spiritual" side that no one who don't share my deep and real love for my own people can ever realise. It is transcendental and beyound words.
    To each his own, but I would not like for Russian society to mirror that of the US. I think some sort of model of a multicultural society can be made out of the American example.
     
  15. Iago Gems: 24/31
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    Ethnicity and roots are an interesting concept. I am baffled when people say they've got Italian or German ancestry. German ? How can you know that ? That could be French, Polish, Czech or Russian as likely. Theoreticly, one could claim membership of an ethnicity that has become out of fashion at the place of it's origins or replaced by another, more fancy one.

    Ethnicity is after all, a matter of taste and not something objectivly existing. It's an temporary agreement, a agreed upon label that can be revoked at any time.

    I think that's not a rare paradox, as most of this stated "ethnicities" maybe were nothing else as the labels the new country gave the new arrivals. And they accepted it, because it might be quite a fuss to point at a rather exotic place on the map and teach people how to spell it.

    Someone from Kosovo might think he's not from Kosovo, but from a Greater-Albania soon to be. What ethnicity does this person have ?

    Or a notorious problem in courts. Kurds and Turks. Kurds do not exist according to Turks, yet still do people claim to be Kurds. How do you handle this as bureaucrat that has to consider time-constrictions ?

    And frankly, I think a lot of "German" or "Italian" ancestors would be quite surprised by the strange and possibly despised label they ended up with.
     
  16. Svyatoslav Gems: 12/31
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    Carcaroth,

    Let me just add a phrase from one of the biggest Russians of the XX century, Alexander Solzhenitzyn:

     
  17. NonSequitur Gems: 19/31
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    Svy,

    My objections to the site were simply based on its lack of objectivity and evidence. Since, as you've pointed out, I wasn't there, I have to take what's said on faith. The fact that it's tied in to ethnic vilification - rightly or wrongly - without a scrap of evidence is what raises my suspicions. And as I said: interesting, if true.

    Re: my supposed hypocrisy:

    No, it's clear - I just figured that (1) you'd never have heard of these people, since they're all Australian PhD students or academics, and (2) I'd want their permission to put their names up online. But for what it's worth, here's a link to details of one course I completed that dealt with it specifically.

    Heh, I wasn't denying that they were destroyed; I just wasn't taking the original site's dogma at face value. Having checked the next site you put up and some of the links from it, which were much more matter-of-fact, I'll concede the ground, here. Of course, I will make the effort to follow this up and learn more about it, because that's the responsible thing to do.

    Maybe not, but if you're trying to convince someone who doesn't know much about the situation, surely it's much wiser to present something a bit more solid?

    Oh please. I never claimed that; I was merely pointing out how tenuous (and arguably, desperate) the nWo claims are getting.

    And yet you're willing to string me up on the same grounds, when it's clear you know very little of my nation and its cultural identity (to the point of denying it exists)? Fine. I'll shut up about things I have comparatively little knowledge of (I know bits and pieces of 20th-century USSR/Russia, nothing more), if you'll extend the same courtesy.

    Of course, what I can surmise from previous posts is that, not being ethnically Russian, not being culturally Russian, you believe I couldn't understand anyway even if you tried, so there's no reason to explain. I'll just have to make the effort to look into it myself, then. I don't assume that I'll be able to appreciate it in the same way you do, but that's inevitable from an outsider's perspective.

    Here's a link from the 2005 ABS statistical lists. The Wikipedia entry "Australia" has a list of data from the 2001 census, as well (they're conducted every 5 years; the next is due in August 2006). The main stats and info page from the 2001 Census can be found here.

    We're still a predominantly "white" nation, if by "white" you include the majority of European ethnicities.

    Maybe, but even so, it's one born out of experience, not prejudice.

    So do I - my point is that these are things which EVERYONE is concerned with. To be fair, though, I'm in the same boat as Nakia as far as the importance and relevance of "race" is concerned. At the end of the day, we all do the same basic things to get through life. Common ground, at the most essential level.

    If those are the only ones you can see or consider relevant, then I truly feel sorry for you. I have no idea how someone could come to view the world in that manner, and am somewhat glad for being ignorant of the process.

    Let's see: anti-anybody not racially and culturally similar to oneself? Promoting an ethnocentric ideal as "the only way forward"? Militant nationalists aside, I'm trying hard to see how this is a desirable state of affairs. Since I'm not only concerned about myself and people that are ethno-culturally similar to me, that may be impossible. I would call my reaction to this being absent in Australia relief, rather than envy.

    I'll admit to letting my emotions get in the way on this one, but not to the extent that it's poisoned my assessment. Maybe you just can't see the problems of enforced and xenophobic homogeneity, maybe you think that the "threat" of an ethno-culturally diverse society is worse.
     
  18. Morgoroth

    Morgoroth Just because I happen to have tentacles, it doesn'

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    I find this to be quite an odd statement to make, since Germany has often been in very good terms with Russia, of course not allways but very often. Before WWI Germany and Russia had very close royal ties, and the relations were quite friendly. Also in the 1920:ies when many Russians fled from the Blosheviks Germany was a place where most of them stayed, of course with the great depression they moved away to Britain or France but still. Even the universities of Germany were very well preferred by the Russian elite. So I'm quite curious on what you base this claim on?
     
  19. Felinoid

    Felinoid Who did the what now? ★ SPS Account Holder

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    If you're talking about the US, then yeah, that was pretty much on purpose. A young and rebellious nation looking to gather support from any and all sources. But if you're talking about GMT-, I think you're a bit off-base. I imagine it's more like they just didn't want to be a **** about it to everyone who came begging for a place to stay. But as I have no info on European immigration policies, I can do nothing more than suppose.

    And who, pray tell, is attempting to create legislature from afar? If you're basing this on our statements about our "multi-culturalism", then I could say the same about you. You've 'pushed' for pure bloodlines just as much (or more, if you count on individual basis rather than group) as we have 'pushed' for mixed.

    I find this...mildly offensive. I'm not near a dictionary to look up the strict definition of mongrel, but the connotation is rather clear. However, it also paints you as a racial supremacist, so I doubt that it's quite what you meant. Moving on...

    People with mixed backgrounds are not rootless, as you suggest, but are in fact even more rooted. I myself have two genetic roots, German and Polish, and an adopted root, American. The adopted root is strongest, and anchors me quite well; my identity is American, and that is what I'll always be.

    But the background of German and Polish gives me something else to contribute to this nation than simply pop music. One of the greatest contributions ever, :beer: , was brought to Milwaukee by German immigrants, and I honestly can't imagine Wisconsin without it. :heh: And the Polish food that my grandmother used to make was too delicious for words.

    Even if one of these roots were to break, I would still have two others to fall back on. Should America be lost, I know that there is always family back in Germany who would be loyal to the name. Those of us who are "rootless" draw strength from many sources, and though we may not get out of it quite what you do, we shall persevere.

    Yours is a different strength; it is the strength of undivided focus. As if your tree had put all of its energy into making one massive root that would not bend or break no matter the winds that it strained against. One solid identity that you can be proud of.

    But such comes at a price. The vulnerability of a single root to termites or other infections like immigration. That is why you fear it; because if the Slavic identity you know is lost to the winds of change, then you will have nothing left. I bid good luck to you in your fight, but know that not all feel as you do.

    You may say that this sounds like NWO, and perhaps I even fit in there, but I ask that you take my next statements at face value. I do like to think that someday all nations will unite as one, and that discrimination about race, gender, sexual preference, etc. will cease. That we will all get along together as a single human race and not bother with borders (though retain what identities we wish). But I'm not exactly holding my breath for it. :heh:
     
  20. NonSequitur Gems: 19/31
    Latest gem: Aquamarine


    Joined:
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    @ Felinoid

    Wise words. I think you've gone to the heart of it, here - well said. :thumb:
     
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