1. SPS Accounts:
    Do you find yourself coming back time after time? Do you appreciate the ongoing hard work to keep this community focused and successful in its mission? Please consider supporting us by upgrading to an SPS Account. Besides the warm and fuzzy feeling that comes from supporting a good cause, you'll also get a significant number of ever-expanding perks and benefits on the site and the forums. Click here to find out more.
    Dismiss Notice
Dismiss Notice
You are currently viewing Boards o' Magick as a guest, but you can register an account here. Registration is fast, easy and free. Once registered you will have access to search the forums, create and respond to threads, PM other members, upload screenshots and access many other features unavailable to guests.

BoM cultivates a friendly and welcoming atmosphere. We have been aiming for quality over quantity with our forums from their inception, and believe that this distinction is truly tangible and valued by our members. We'd love to have you join us today!

(If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us. If you've forgotten your username or password, click here.)

Immigration/Integration - politics, problems, potential solutions

Discussion in 'Alley of Lingering Sighs' started by dmc, Nov 7, 2005.

  1. khaavern Gems: 14/31
    Latest gem: Chrysoberyl


    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2004
    Messages:
    675
    Likes Received:
    0
    Bah, nationalism of the type Svyatoslav advocates is so... nineteen century :) Look at the two big wars in the twentieth century to see its consequences. (on a smaller scale and more recently, you can see the effects of nationalism/tribalism in what happened in former Yugoslavia and in any number of African wars). I would take integration problems any time over that.

    Face it, immigration/integration problems are a fact of the world today. Some nations (ie, US, England) are better at dealing with it, some others prefer to think that it does not exist, and foreign people will 'magically' assimilate. Then they wonder when it turn around and it bites them.

    These issues are actually not problems of race/religion, but rather social problems. In any country, there is a portion of people which, for a number of reasons, does quite bad economically. Typically immigrants are a large part of that population (but not necessarily, for example, in the US I would say that some immigrant categories -indian and asian- do better than native black people, for example). The challenge for the state is to help these people. It might be hard; some of them might not want to work along; but then, this is why I called it a challenge. And I think that nations which face this directly and don't sweep the problem under the rug will be much better in the long term.
     
  2. Svyatoslav Gems: 12/31
    Latest gem: Moonstone


    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2005
    Messages:
    475
    Likes Received:
    0
    I did say I was not interested in further discussing this with you, but since what you say is so absurd, let me add something.
    To begin with, the Dutch are Germanic. Integrating them is a whole different matter than integrating muslim and african immigrants. That should be obvious enough.
    As for the French, as much as they are different from you, there is still a huge gap between them and these third world immigrants. For one they are Christian, amongst many other similliarities.
    By the way, I dont know what historical period you are reffering yourself to, but if it is before the WWII - which is very likely - I doubt germans bothered much for integrating them, as this kind of "humanistic PC" caring is rather new - post WWII - adding to the fact germans are not historically very, well, tolerant let me put, my bet is that they integrated themselves on their own. And do you know why they were successful? Because, as I said just above, they are also Europeans - and the Dutch are also Germanic - so integration is just much easier, and even comes naturally, without the need for any attempt of the goverment to integrate them. In one hand we have people integrating themselves naturally into a different Nation, in a time where there was no pressure for doing so, in the other we have third world immigrants who can fully integrate even with goverment support. It just proves my point on the abyss there is between fellow European immigrants and the ones from the third world.

    I am not too sure they feel Russian either. A great deal of these "Russians" collaborated with the nazies. Honestly, I am glad they are leaving. They overdued their staying really.
    They were born and raised here, but were never fully Russian. For one, they are not Orthodox, and you cant be Russian if you are not Orthodox, which makes me think blood has an important role. Culture and blood are equal halves of the whole.

    Fellinoid,

    By the way, talking about being foolish, are you not the one always ranting about how you hate people and everything? Can anyone get more childish than that? :) unless you are 13 years old. ;)

    ----------------------------------------------------

    khaavern,

    I dont think my kind of Nationalism will necessarily lead into a new WW. I do think the policies of multiculturalism and internationalism will, though.
     
  3. Felinoid

    Felinoid Who did the what now? ★ SPS Account Holder

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2005
    Messages:
    7,470
    Likes Received:
    6
    Gender:
    Male
    [​IMG] @Svy:
    Alright, I'll admit to specism, but it's not considered quite as silly as racism in the galactic eye. :roll: And you'll note that I rant about hating "people" rather than this race or that race, or even a specific gender or class or whatever. I'm an equal-opportunity hater. ;)

    Besides, if you can't be a little childish on a site dedicated to games, then where can you? :grin:

    P.S. 21; and you? :happy:

    Finally something we can agree on; traitors are welcome nowhere. :nono:

    Either might, or it might not; doing neither might as well. But I think the most likely WW3 will occur between those who wish to make the world into a cultural Borg collective and those who wish to live isolated and stagnating. There has to be a compromise, and I'd say we're closer to it right now than any of the suggestions that have been proposed so far.
     
  4. Svyatoslav Gems: 12/31
    Latest gem: Moonstone


    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2005
    Messages:
    475
    Likes Received:
    0
    LOL! Well, your hate is not based in anything, but simple contempt for people, which happens with people with too much time in their hands - that is my interpretation anyway ;) - which makes it more childish. Hehe.

    That is a secret! :p

    They are in hell. :D

    Actually, a WW might be far fetched, but I see something coming in the future.
     
  5. NonSequitur Gems: 19/31
    Latest gem: Aquamarine


    Joined:
    May 27, 2004
    Messages:
    1,152
    Likes Received:
    0
    WARNING: Sorry folks, this post got a bit out-of-control... I'll try better next time!

    Svy, it's hard to use Detect Sarcasm through a computer unless it's clearly stated - but I really hope you were kidding about this... I don't think it's the sort of thing to joke about.

    Re: social Darwinism - I wasn't advocating it; I feel that the whole premise is fundamentally flawed when one or more groups have a greater ability to change laws or rules. That's not survival of the fittest; it's survival of the most litigious and wealthy more than anything. If the set-up of the field only lets a select few have any real chance, there are serious problems.

    Re: Christian values - hey, I was only throwing it out there as a possible reason for helping people. I don't presume to speak for the personal faiths of billions. I draw a fundamental distinction between national pride and nationalism as concepts - one is primarily personal, the other is primarily political. By way of example - it hurt the collective Australian psyche to lose the Ashes to England, but it's not as though we'd sever diplomatic ties to them or impose additional tariffs because of it!

    True, but I put it to you that you're reading it selectively if you think John Paul II was endorsing racial segregation. There's a world of difference between encouraging people to embrace a personal identity borne out of their ancestry and circumstances, and encouraging them to be borderline racial supremacists.

    Re: racial traits - I was referring more to personality and social traits. There are a number of obvious physical traits that can be racially distinct, and indeed, that's the only immutable substantive difference, IMO. Even then, it's still more of a predisposition than a locked-in certainty.

    I'll concede that this is a danger, so long as you'll concede that the same process can be - and historically, has been - applied in reverse (blaming race over anything else). I can't see a racially "pure" nation being miraculously free of problems, and if there's no-one to blame on genetic grounds, what then?

    No, it's not - I specifically said that race *alone* should not be a determinant, and that if it is, the process is racist. It may be relevant, yes; it should *never* be the sole deciding factor, IMO.

    Re: Le Pen - I don't know much about the guy, but he seems like a nut. His one redeeming feature (IMO) is that he has nothing but contempt for political correctness. "Neither left, nor right, but French"? Yeah, that will solve everything! :rolleyes:

    My apologies if I've offended you - I'm fairly ignorant of anything other than 20th century history and the Napoleonic Wars. I figured that having higher civilian casualties than any other nation involved in WW2 was a good enough reason by itself, to say nothing of matters of which I was ignorant.

    You're right - that does sound backward to me. If someone wants to live in Russia and adopt Russian ways, but was born outside of it, how are they classified? They could be a model citizen - but they'd still be treated like an outsider? Hardly a way to encourage anyone to offer assistance.

    In the end, though, you're not going to budge, and I'm not going to go much further than half-way to meet you. Still, I'd rather argue the call and attempt to get you to see things my way than just leave you to it, and I'm fairly certain that sentiment is mutual.
     
  6. Fabius Maximus Gems: 19/31
    Latest gem: Aquamarine


    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2003
    Messages:
    1,103
    Likes Received:
    3
    Another very old point. We are talking about the 18th century here. The cultural gaps between the european countries were much bigger than today. The schism between catholics and protestants was not that long ago.
    The immigration policy (if you want to call it that) of King Friedrich II. of Prussia is mainly discribed with three factors: religious tolerance, military service and jobs. He made Prussia a secular state. This way, the polish catholic immigrants could feel at home.
    He had a big army; his father installed an compulsory military service. Every man had to serve in the army.
    And there were jobs to be had. So, you had social stability and - together with the common mindset at the time - bled and died your (new) motherland.

    I don't want to suggest that every immigrant should serve in the military forces. But it was an intigrating factor then.

    Many of todays immigrants have no social security. Their mindset is a mixture of very diverse factors.

    They had and have certain expections about the country in which they were going to live. Jobs, social security, general security, acceptance, etc. Many did not get any of it.

    They get no jobs, because they are not well educated. Jobs for undereducated people become more and more scarce. That means they have a lot of time. And they are bored.

    They have low social security. The systems are certainly different. To examples: The french social system is rather oppressive. It demands a lot and gives little.
    The swedish system, otoh, is also demanding. But traditionally 'well endowed'.

    There is more, and it is very complicated.

    And yes, I am aware that I speak in broad generalizations here. Not all immigrants are equally bad off. For instance, the better your education is, the easier you integrate yourself.

    And again, I don't want to apologize for any immigrant who's becoming a criminal. They are responsible for their offences.


    By the way, you can see the phenomenon that in some areas the germans get similar problems. In some of Berlin's quarters you find virtually no immigrants, but an equally high crime rate (especially violent crimes), high unemployment rate, and low education. These germans have problems with integration, too.

    No, I fear he's dead serious about it.
     
  7. Pac man Gems: 25/31
    Latest gem: Moonbar


    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2002
    Messages:
    2,119
    Likes Received:
    1
    So that they can share Zeljko Raznatovic' faith ? That would be a glorious day indeed.
     
  8. chevalier

    chevalier Knight of Everfull Chalice ★ SPS Account Holder Veteran

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2002
    Messages:
    16,808
    Media:
    11
    Likes Received:
    53
    Gender:
    Male
    Immigrants, huh? We got partitioned in 1772, 1793 and 1795, Prussia getting a slice of our land and population at each time.
     
  9. Svyatoslav Gems: 12/31
    Latest gem: Moonstone


    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2005
    Messages:
    475
    Likes Received:
    0
    No. I would shelter them any day. I am sure you dont know as much about them and their role as you would think. But whatever.

    Hehe, yes, I realize, I would never suggest you were advocating social Darwinism. It would take a very poor observer to assume you are one. ;)
    I dont think social Darwinism is as simple as you make it seem, but then this thread is not about it.

    My intent was to show how Christian doctrine is not opposed at all at my world view. Quite the opposite...
    I know your example was not made to be serious, so I hope you realize my world view is not as simplistic.

    He was quite clear about it. When he says people should be raised to be members of their own ethinicity/Nation there can be no doubt about the meaning of it.
    Of course in our day and age people couldn't admit hearing from the pope himself anything which makes Race relevant, but he sent the message in a subtle way regardless. Of course the media forgets this, and rather focus on the aspects of the last pope which fits their agenda the best.

    Then we disagree. I definetely believe in a Russian Soul grounded on the Slavic ethncity/ancestry.
    Even if these traits would be only external, they would still matter to me though. I can spot a Russian - and usually a Slav in general - in any crowd of people.

    There can be no doubt about that. Certainly a racially homogeneous Nation would still face problems, those which will always exist in any aggroup of people. However, there are many problem which are multiculturalism based, and those would naturally disappear.
    Regardless, I am not a Nationalist because I believe if my Nation is pure it will be free of problems.

    Just for the record, relevant in what process? In the making of National policies?

    You dont know much about him, but if he is not a multicultural freak he has to be a nut, huh? :rolleyes:
    His policies will not solve all the problems of France, but they will solve the ones ensued by immigration.
    By the way, I thought you were more ideological than that? Do you really think all National policies should be grounded solely on pragmatism?

    You did not offend me at all. Actually, what you say is true. I was only pointing out it goes much deeper - and longer - than that reason.

    Again we will have to disagree. Not that being backwarded sounds bad to me in the current way of facing the world.
    As for your question, let me say a role model of Russian citizen to me is one which follows Russians traditions and Culture - being Orthodox is fundamental - as well as caring for his fellow brethren. That said, there is no way an outsider could apply in this deffiniton. Maybe his children could, but it would still be unlikely.
    If you mean a law abbiding citizen, it hardly makes one a role model of a citizen, as this is the duty and the least one can do - mainly if you are a foreigner.
    I dont know what the big deal is though, I am not saying he would not be granted civil rights, but he would never be regarded as a Russian by the people, because he simply is not Russian. It is the same with whiggers. They can enjoy african way of living as much as they want, and they can even be accepted by their rap idols, but they will never be black, no matter what. Things/people either are, or they are not.
    If anyone can be a Russian, there is no reason for existing the deffition of being Russian. In the end, it all comes down to people wanting to destroy group classifications, and replacing it for the "we are all humans" slogan, which is BS.
    And which assistance you mean?

    True, but only for a personal vanity matter. I bear no illusions you will ever see things my way.
    ----------------------------------------------------

    So points are either old - read backward - if they oppose multiculturalism, or new - read progressive - if they are pro multiculturalism?

    BS! The only aspect which makes the gap bigger in the past is the fact Europeans were more religious at that time.
    Since you mention Polish "immigrants" - which is very cynic of you - let me give you the example of the Polish Rzeczpospolita. It was a pretty diverse place, ethnically and religiously wise. Catholics, zhids, all sorts of protestant sects, Orthodoxes - before they were forcefully converted - and yet it existed for a while, not in a very organised fashion I would dare say, but it did regardless. Why? Because despite the gap, there was a somewhat common origin and similarity. However, in the end it still backfired at them. I can't see why it won't backfire nowadays, wherein the cultural/ethnical/religious abyss is much wider. Denying it is just dishonest.
    I am not too sure your point is valid anyway. For one, if your integration policy was so successful, why is it that you could not suppress the Polish identity - I wont mention the Dutch and the French because I have no idea what was their end? In the end, when they were freed, their sense of Nation was as strong as ever - if not more so I would dare say. Not to say I am being biased, in the Russian controlled regions it was the same too, they never stopped regarding themselves as Poljacks.
    Actually, refuting your point even further, it is so fragile and untrue to the point of absurdity. Why do you think Austria's army was so pitifull in the WWI? A bunch of different Nations/ethnicities who couldn't give a damn about the fate or well being of the Austro-Hungarian empire. In countless occurrances they would just drop down their weapons, when they did not revolt against Austrian troops that is!

    Which was not too successful, at least with the Polish "immigrants".

    Good, because people would accuse you of being an evil intolerant bigot for doing so! :rolleyes:

    That is always the problem: expectations When I made 18, I expected my father would give me a car. He did not. When I entered the university again my expectation were set high, but nothing came out of it! Damn him for making me sweating and not attending my expectations!

    Oh my! Poor them. They are BORED!

    So the claim that the Europeans have to work their asses - not that I think Europeans work that hard nowadays - to sustain the social security of lazy immigrants - or the lazy part of the indigenous population - holds no water? Funny, I always hear people complaining about it.

    Yes, but all of the ones who are bad off are so because of the "Oppressive" European system, right?

    Well, that is a relief. But let me say when you make dozens of excuses to "explain" the riots, that is an apologetic position, not matter how you mask it.

    I wouldn't know, so I will have to take your word for it.

    You bet I am.
    ----------------------------------------------------

    [Non-English portion of the post removed due to lack of translation provided by the author. He can put it back in if it's really important and pertinent, so long as he provides the translation.] - dmc

    [ November 12, 2005, 01:19: Message edited by: dmc ]
     
  10. chevalier

    chevalier Knight of Everfull Chalice ★ SPS Account Holder Veteran

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2002
    Messages:
    16,808
    Media:
    11
    Likes Received:
    53
    Gender:
    Male
    What about Russians who are largely descended from Vikings who came along with Rurik? Or those who are descended from those Vikings but aren't Russian? :D ;)

    Yeah on both accounts. Abiding by the law is the minimum and immigrants have a special duty to obey the laws in place. I don't think newcomers should have the same right to some strange, bothersome and possibly problematic customs or patterns of behaviour as much as the locals or minorities who have been around for so long that they are de facto locals.

    As for the downfall of the Rzeczpospolita, I don't think it was because of the multiculturality back in 1795. Things that happened during (and partially after) WW2 were probably largely the result of some idiotic and barbaric acts of the Polish government in late thirties (destroying Orthodox churches etc). We had a screwed situation, being surrounded by Prussia, Russia and Austria, each of them being stronger individually than we were.
     
  11. Svyatoslav Gems: 12/31
    Latest gem: Moonstone


    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2005
    Messages:
    475
    Likes Received:
    0
    WHAT!? :mad: LOL! That is BS dude! The Viking origins of Rus is a myth created by a Germanic supremacist called Müller!
    No Russian looks like a Scandinavian. :D


    Glad we agree then. Unfortunately most people dont seem to think like that.

    Sure, sure. I didn't mean to say multiculturalism was the sole reason, but dont you agree it payed it's toil? Like when Radziwill allied himself with the Swedes for example?
    In the end, what happened was a cowardice and a terrible thing. Three emperial powers grouping on a smaller Nation like that - even if Poland was pretty powerful some centuries ago.
     
  12. khaavern Gems: 14/31
    Latest gem: Chrysoberyl


    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2004
    Messages:
    675
    Likes Received:
    0
    What the... Posts in this thread seem to become more and more surreal.

    Granted, I do not know much about Polish history, but ... how were the germans in the least justified in invading Poland? Or the Soviets, when they killed 20,000 Polish officers after the war ... how can be that blamed on acts of the Polish government?

    And about Svyatoslav's views ... espousing racial purity, as in "it is the legitimate right of Russians to keep Russia Slavic" or
    well, that's quite remarkable, in this day and age. I thought we learned something from history.
     
  13. Fabius Maximus Gems: 19/31
    Latest gem: Aquamarine


    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2003
    Messages:
    1,103
    Likes Received:
    3
    Not so. They are old as in "repeated over and over again.

    Actually I meant those who migrated westwards. I did not mean the people who remained there. Why do you think that so many germans in Berlin and Brandenburg or in the Ruhrgebiet bear polish names?

    It is logical that those who remained kept their strong national feelings. But this was not the issue.

    And your point is?

    You missed the point. They have no jobs.

    Ah, no. You missed the point again. And you failed to connect it with the point in 'no jobs'.

    Do I see a pattern here? Try to think along those lines. Only once. For a change. Please.
    Being cynical is no valid argumet. Calm down.

    If you choose to belief so... I don't care.

    tried to find an english source, but I falied. That phenomenon is not widly known and underrepresented in the media. At least, in non-yellowpress media.
     
  14. Svyatoslav Gems: 12/31
    Latest gem: Moonstone


    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2005
    Messages:
    475
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gde Je Jedan, Tu Su Svi, Arkanovi Tigrovi
    Where is one, All are here, Arkan's Tigers.
    Sorry for the delay.

    ----------------------------------------------------

    Granted that was not intended to me, this only shows people should becareful before posting... Chevalier is Polish, so I doubt he is justifying anything. Maybe learning a bit of Eastern European History would help?

    That is not racial purity. It is simple a matter of self determination and land right. I am sure you value your properties, dont you?

    Just for the record, it was you, westerns, who screwed things before with racial supremacist views, not we.
    I thought you westernes learned not to try to impose your ways on others from History? I see you didnt.
    -----------------------------------------------------

    If they are thruthful, they should be.

    "So many" is not the proper term, methinks. Unless they are GREATLY under represented among your politicians, writters etc, but then that would mean they were not really integrated, and rather discriminated against.

    Remained where? All was "your" own land, and you were talking about Prussia, wherein many Polish "immigrants" lived. And what is the issue?

    Aint that clear? Expect less, move your as, work hard and stop whining. That can do miracles for anyone.

    You should had omit the bored part though, it sounded a very childish explanation. I mean, being bored is just... lets say it happens with anyone.
    I will cover the jobs part below.

    No, I think the point is rather clear. They have nothing to complain about. I would love to have others work to pay for my social security luxuries.
    They dont have jobs? There are many unemployed people in Eastern Europe. Do you see them rioting? The difference is that people in EE have a much higher education than those third world immigrants.

    I am calm, pretty much. No immigrant is burning cars in my country. If I was French though... you bet I would be pretty pissed.
    If you can see a pattern in my reasoning, so can I about yours.

    I am just pointing out how things are.

    You mean in the "evil rightist" media? :rolleyes: Dont bother, I am not doubting you.
     
  15. Fabius Maximus Gems: 19/31
    Latest gem: Aquamarine


    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2003
    Messages:
    1,103
    Likes Received:
    3
    I cannot answer this. But you can look in a phnoe book from these regions.

    Remainded in former poland. Those how migrated to the prussian core lands (Brandenburg again), or even farther west couldn't be distinguished from original prussians anymore after a few generations.

    We are talking about young people here. It is childish, but most of the immigrants who start trouble are 14 years and older. Their behaviour changes after they hit about 21-25.

    I would hardly call them 'luxuries'.

    Exactly. Education is the key. But you forget that most of the 'immigrants' here are offspring of those who were brought here 30 or 40 years ago. They were brought here to work in jobs which you don't need an education for. But the number of these jobs is reduced year for year.

    We weren't able to teach the immigrant's children, so that they have the prerequisites to get an higher education. This is a german problem.

    In France, you have very low chances to get a job or an education after you finished school when you come from one of the banlieus. Or your name sounds 'outlandish'. Even if you were good at school.

    Ah, no. You are just stating your version of the truth.

    No? Were do you get that from?
     
  16. Svyatoslav Gems: 12/31
    Latest gem: Moonstone


    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2005
    Messages:
    475
    Likes Received:
    0
    Of course you dont expect me to do it? :rolleyes:

    I need sources for this. Regardless, how many migrated to these core lands you mention? Integrating a few dozen sparse immigrants is no big deal.

    That seems to be speculation. Not that age matters anyway...

    What would you?

    My point still stands: In EE there are big social problems, and no riots...

    There is only one thruth, not "versions" of it.

    Nowhere. I was just asking you.
     
  17. NonSequitur Gems: 19/31
    Latest gem: Aquamarine


    Joined:
    May 27, 2004
    Messages:
    1,152
    Likes Received:
    0
    I know enough to have an informed opinion. I have studied that conflict (events at Srbrenica in particular) and worked closely with multiple researchers who have investigated the alleged atrocities overseen by these men and others like them.

    If need be, then yes. The process goes both ways, IMO - although I would be exceptionally cautious of any proposal (let alone policy) which targeted particular racial groups. Some affirmative action is predicated on the notion that race is relevant to policy.

    That said, I would be stunned if someone could conclusively prove that race alone was (or should be) the determinant factor in policy. It's always much, much more complex than that.

    No, I went to the trouble of visiting a number of news archives and the guy's website before making that assessment - and I still qualified my remark quite heavily. It's not just because he not a "multicultural freak", as you put it; I honestly think his attitudes are divisive and unhelpful. What will really tick me off is if he succeeds in deepening the problem by making such incendiary comments, then turning around and claiming that it proves he was right. That is why I think he's a nut; I don't think he's considered the repercussions of his actions or his proposals.

    Not solely, no - I consider myself a progressive pragmatist. I prefer enlightened and inclusive policy, but only if it is workable. IMO, there is no benefit in attaching oneself to a pipe-dream view of the world, regardless of one's political beliefs, and there is no point in change for its own sake.

    That's not to say I'm detached from morality or philosophical considerations, merely that I refuse to work in absolutes. I also think that it's crucial to consider not only how policy will address current issues, but what its other consequences may be.

    Well, yes, there is still a reason - national/cultural identity and multiculturalism are not mutually exclusive. We are all humans; it's just that we all have our mannerisms and idiosyncracies, and these will always exist. People will always define themselves somehow, whether by affiliation or differentiation; in my opinion and experience, people are usually not that different from each other and can find common ground with just about anybody if they bother to look.

    Multiculturalism is not a cultural sledge hammer (or at least, it shouldn't be) and is not set to wipe out life as you know it. It should ideally be about basic, informal tolerance of others rather than imposing it (although there is a huge difference between personal intolerance and vilification). I accept that it doesn't always work that way, and I have as little time for tolerance preachers who don't practice their own creed as I do for red-necked racists. It's been okay over here, at least; maybe that's because Australia's ethno-cultural identity is much more varied and we don't feel like we're the only ones welcome here.

    Ditto (probably for the same reason, too). But I'd rather try, and fail, than not try at all.

    Well, that... plus, I just like a good argument! :p
     
  18. Fabius Maximus Gems: 19/31
    Latest gem: Aquamarine


    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2003
    Messages:
    1,103
    Likes Received:
    3
    Why not? See it as educational. ;)

    Again I searched but found only a small part in an article in Wikipedia about the Ruhr area. Seems to me I was wrong about the century for this area. Generally, there live aproximaltly 3 mio. poles in germany and further were integrated a long time ago.

    Links. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Germans and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruhr_Area

    Does it not, then? In german crime statistics, young imigrants are convicted above-average because of violent crimes. Age does matter, believe me.

    'Scraps' perhaps? Or 'Pittance'? You can live of it, but poorly. And it is certainly not fun. There are ways to exploit the system, as always. But that's hardly common.

    Yeah, but we are talking about immigrants here, not about the indigenous people. The latter are still part of the society, which many of the immigrants never were.

    I agree. Theoretically. But no human being is able to see the whole truth. You would have to be absolutly objective to do that. But everyone is subjective.

    No, the phenomenon does get only media coverage when someone is killed. The most spectacular case this year was about a woman who killed several of their babies and stored the corpses in her freezer.

    Other cases involved a group of teenagers and young adults who tortured a friend to death. Just because they were bored. Another group did the same with a mentally retarded man. This was in 2003 or 2004.

    Many of the violence crimes committed by neo-nazis happen because the people are not integrated into our society. It's the same phenomenon, but there are still less commonly reflected.
     
  19. Svyatoslav Gems: 12/31
    Latest gem: Moonstone


    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2005
    Messages:
    475
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ok, for starters refute that article I posted the link a while ago.
    Another one for your (dis)pleasure: http://www.interfax-religion.com/kosovo/

    The way I see it, the laws of Russia should reflect the Russian Orthodox Culture and Russian ethncity. No more no less.
    If a different Race is not satisfied with that, they can move to Australia or wherever.

    Did the leftists foresee the repercussions of their multicultural pro immigration agenda? Most clearly they did not, and now people have to deal with it. Something has to be done, least as long as people want to keep their identities and secure their Nations. Le Pen seems a good option to me.

    I agree there is no point in holding yourself into a pipe-dream version of the world, but I dont think National policies should be grounded solely on pragmatism.
    It is not a matter of whether Le Pen will solve the problem or not, but the fact I support his ideological stance to keep France French.

    I hope you dont consider people who are willing to work in the absolutes to be devoid of morality - and by the absolutes I dont mean genocide by the way.
    As for considering the consequences, I repeat once again, the universalist "humanists" certainly did not look ahead of them before creating this whole situation.

    I disagree. For one, let me tell the idea of multiculturalism and diversity is a fallacy made up by leftists.
    As absurd as it may sound to someone who has never thought about it in a more subtle manner, the fact is that people such as I are the ones pushing for a multicultural and diverse world.
    A world drawn on ethnical and cultural lines isa multicultural and diverse world, like no other model can be. Hundreds of different National cultures and groups of people, all of them coexisting at the same time, with their own particularities and self determination.
    In the other hand, we have this pseudo multicultural and diverse world which is being pushed by the UN by their NWO intellectuals. This one can not, by any stretch of imagination, be a multicultural world, simply because they want to create a kind of world that someone living in extreme Eastern part of the world, lives and acts in the exact same manner someone living in the opposite west. One culture, one way of living/thinking etc. Multiculturalism? Not even them believe their own lies!
    By that perspective, then National identity and multiculturalism are not mutually exlusive - otherwise is true - but by the fallacious world view of these leftists they are.
    As for common ground, it is not very hard to find it if we are talking about a shallow and vain world perspective. Sure, it is not hard to find someone from a totally different culture than you who likes to play Baldurs Gate, but what does that mean exactly?
    Dont hold it against me, but your way of thinking seems to be one which reflects the fact you come from Australia, a place without a very strong, deep-rooted and long National Culture and identity. To think the rest of the world reflects such approach to these aspects of life is at least egoistical and self centered.

    It is not hard for me to tolerate others when they are in their own places; to each his own. But when there is a policy of mass immigration, whose result shall be the weakening and loss of my ethno-cultural group, then I will oppose it till the last drop of my blood.
    As for the last part of your post, I certainly believe the fact that you are from Australia shapes the way you think.

    Hehe. I like too. It is good to discuss with antis sometimes, or else we might end up forgeting the arguments used by our opposers. I mean, when I talk to my friends, all that I am telling you goes without saying. ;)
    ---------------------------------------------------

    I dont even know if that could be done. Ship me a list and I will think about it, ok?

    It says there are 3 million Polish living in germany. The fact it states they are Polish means, logically, they are not fully integrated, at least not culturally or ethnically.
    Furthermore, 3 of the 4 Polish mentioned in the link - there is no article of Dariusz Wosz, although I would assume it is the same case - were born in Poland, meaning they are not remnants of any integration policy of Prussia of the XVIII century.
    As for claiming half of germany has Polish blood - haha, for some reason I think many germans dont like this idea - although this certainly seems far fetched, it is true a good deal of germans - and even more Austrians may claim that - have Slavic blood - luck you ;) - but that is due to the fact of the germanisation of the lands which are now Eastern germany, which were all Slavic. http://gcjm.dyndns.org/sw/inhalt11/d01.htm
    Lastly, dont forget many of these "Polish" surnames, despite being Slavic, are not Polish per see, but Sorbian - by the way, when are you going to stop trying to mercilessly assimilate the Sorbian community? Closing up their schools is not something a "democratic" and "pro human rights" country would do.

    It does not matter to justify a criminal act.

    All the info I have regarding French social security is that these immigrants have nothing to complain. It certainly is a lot better than they would have in their countries, and they can certainly sustain their basic needs - more than that actually.

    Who is to blame? Some dont even want to learn the language. Actually, some poor people around EE are so poor I have a hard time picturing them within the society...

    Which is also true, but to claim others are as right as you is illogical. An honest man has the duty to fight for what he believes it is right. Not fighting for your own creed on the basis that you cant see the whole true is weak and nonsensical.

    Wait, those seem like typical isolated cases - at least I would hope this is not the norm within your society. How does that make it simmilar to immigrant areas?
     
  20. Fabius Maximus Gems: 19/31
    Latest gem: Aquamarine


    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2003
    Messages:
    1,103
    Likes Received:
    3
    Wait a moment. As long as they are accepting our way of live, do not violate our laws and don't seclude themselves, they are integrated. Don't mix 'integration' with 'assimilation'. It does not matter what name they give themselves.
    By the way, these poles came more recently here, after the fall of the iron curtain.

    Who is Roman Zaroff? His claims could be true, but nevertheless a lot of poles migrated to germany/prussia.
    Actually, most of us don't mind our slavic heritage: I guess, we are the most mixed ehtnic in Europe, because in the last 2000 years everyone moved through or into germany.

    Heck, the bayuvarians - the bavarian forebears - were a slavic tribe that came here during the great migration of peoples.


    No. As I said, these poles mentioned moved here more recently. Wosz, by the way, is a german now. As are Lukas Podolski and Paul Freier (who gave up his polish surname).

    Actually, I have sorbic forebears.

    As far as I know, the sorbic culture is protected by the brandenburgian constitution. (Minorities are the responsibility of the state where they live: Remember, germany is a federal state)
    There is a law for enhancing their culture in Brandenburg. There exists a foundation to this end.

    They are not forcibly assimilated anymore.

    There were schools closed in Saxonia, probably because of lack of pupils. There are not enough children in the according regions anymore.

    But there is also an new political party since this year which fights for sorbic rights.


    Justifying? Where? It explains it. Children and teenagers often do foolish things, especially teens who see no future for themselves. They have to take the responibility for their actions.

    Satisfying the basic needs is not luxury. Especially if it comes with a lot of pressure to find a job when there are no jobs for immigrants.

    Sure, some don't want to integrate. But they are not the majority. Integration efforts have to come from both sides: The immigrants have to have the will. And the state has to make it possible: Free language courses, a fitting school system, help in getting jobs, etc. States cannot just let a part of the society fall on the face.

    As for the poor in EE: They maybe falling out of society, but I guess they still consider themselves part of it. That's the difference.


    Yes, these are singular cases. But they mirror the state of some parts of society. KMost of the crimes happen indoors: Men beating their wives or their children, drug and alcohol abuse, etc.

    Poor people tend to live in city quarters where are cheap appartments to rent. They gather. The structures are as such: High jobless rate (especially under young people), low education (because our school system disfavors children from poor families), high crime rate (gain especially under young people), etc.
    You can find the same structures within quarters where many immigrants live. But the latter are affected higher-than-average by these condition, because most of them who were brought here by the german government were of low social standing.

    So, we have no immigrant problem, we have an underclass problem.


    Sure. But claiming to have the only truth is still lying. Or (deliberate) dumbness.
     
Sorcerer's Place is a project run entirely by fans and for fans. Maintaining Sorcerer's Place and a stable environment for all our hosted sites requires a substantial amount of our time and funds on a regular basis, so please consider supporting us to keep the site up & running smoothly. Thank you!

Sorcerers.net is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to products on amazon.com, amazon.ca and amazon.co.uk. Amazon and the Amazon logo are trademarks of Amazon.com, Inc. or its affiliates.