If only they had listened to the Lord...

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Greenlion ... I don't have the time to refute all your points.

But the King James Version is an isolated translation. The newer ones (NIV, ESV, etc) use a completely different set of Greek & Hebrew manuscripts that date back much further. There have been tons of checking, cross-referencing and comparing to mantain the validity of our translations of the Bible. So, say what you want about the King James Version, but those statements in no way shake the foundation of the Christian faith.

As to the Vatican being the source of all evil in the world ... nah, I'll leave that one alone for now. It's pretty obvious that there have been no preistly suicide-bombers.

 

People doing horrible things in the name of God is not the same as people obeying God. Look at the Crusades - God was given as the reason for them, but stop and think about it - did Christ ever command us to win others over by bashing their heads in with swords and maces until they submit? No. He preached longsuffering, forgiveness, love.

Things like the Crusades came about from people doing what they wanted to do, and then tacking God's name onto it for justification.

The Book of Revelation tells us that adding to or taking away from God's word is a sin. When evil things are done in the name of God, it is not God who should be blamed, but those who are using His name to cover up their own selfish motives.

 

Greenlion420, while I perfectly agree with what you have said about the Europeans conquering Indians, I must make the reservation that what they *really* did - the atrocities you mention - wasn't and couldn't be done in the name of God. They were just the sort of priests and politicians that had Jesus crucified two thousand years ago. You can't claim that they both derelicted their vocation and performed God's will. Besides, even the Spanish in America weren't as bloodthirsty murderers as Aztec or Inca leaders, not to mention lesser always battling tribes, so one can't say they were all the evil. Also the Spanish were not always the attackers - many a time it was either one or the other concurrent settlement to survive. In most cases conquistadors rather used vengeance as a pretext for looting and murdering rather than simply invaded lands - though, as you say, with the name of God on their mouth.

However, the more important part of your post is the second one. Please tell us more of the source of evil that Vatican is. Explain to us how Pope John Paul II spreads hatred and envy and is a worst genocidal tyrant than Saddam Hussein or Osama ibn Laden and how he corrupts the world. Perhaps, as you seem to be well informed, you could also reveal some of his insidious evil plans to us. You have indeed captivated most of my attention, so I can't wait to receive these answers from you.

Edit: I would also appreciate it if you were to prove that mormons are morons or that it's easy to confuse them.

[ April 08, 2003, 23:18: Message edited by: chevalier ]

 

What Greenlion says is very stylish and shocking, but it sadly has no substance. As Chevalier mentioned, the evidence for the Catholics being the root of the world's problems is going to be pretty tough to find -- because it doesn't exist! And I'm not even a Catholic, I'm one of those Salt Lake Morons Greelion mentioned.

You know, the only other group I know of that really guns for Catholics is the Aryan nations and their ilk. Those guys hate Catholics just as much as Jews or Muslims. Now, Greenlion, you are obviously not a fascist, but you are in their company when you say the Catholics are a world threat. Think about it.

 

Ok, first off, let me clarify that I don't think we should wipe out an entire nation...I was wondering how it would affect the world today if the people back in the day had done as they were commanded to.

What the hell does that mean?!?!? Are you implying that since I haven't memorized the bible that I'm not a Christian? Or are you just a complete moron?!?!? Anyways...unless you re-phrase that comment, you are on my list of people to slap.

Ummm...not sure if I should take that as a compliment or not...

Ahhhh...that's what I was talking about when I first started this thread...

Good point.

Anyways...I don't know where this topic derailed the track, but all I wished was to point out that the Middle East would probably be a lot more peaceful if the Israelites did what they were commanded to.

Also, according to a well educated teacher of mine, Islam would probably not exist, since it's roots could be traced back to the people who were supposed to be wiped out. Now I'm not saying that it's the religion that is causing all the trouble over there, (correct me if I'm wrong) but isn't it the Islam nations that say if you die for your religion you get a free ticket past the Pearly Gates?

 

As i have posted in another thread the Holy bible and generally everything is written or claimed to have been said byt GOD has been put through serious cencorship.

And not to forget that in ancient times the Knowledge was possesed by the clerics/priests and because they were human( meaning they had needs and passions) sometimes (more than often i'm afraid) they mislead the people using the divine exclamation for what they were asking from the people. This applies to almost any religion in this world.
And through some search i have made for myshelf (not in the internet so i can't show any link) there are more gospels than the "official" ones not to mention that these too are cencored big time.
My point is that sometimes when we read the Old Testaments or Qu'ran or anything like these don't forget that some things were put in there by the clerics for protection of the nation not because God told them that. For example alcohol is prohibited in Qu'ran because if you are in these climates (desert, heat etc) and drink alcohol you can die from dehydration very easily. The fasting in cristian religion was to secure a healthy diet for the people to ensure they won't eat constantly meat. These are good examples there are and bad ones too.

 

Ah yes, but we can go even further back..
Man was created in South Africa, or in Eden, whichever you prefer.
What if somebody just slaughtered the whole lot there?

Remember that it is still genocide you're talking about, no matter what book, priest or God approves that.

And IIRC, genocide is viewed as one of the greatest crimes against humanity.

Atrocities? Which one? By what standard do you see them as atrocities?

[ April 09, 2003, 10:43: Message edited by: Morgoth ]

 

IIRC, Mohammed was greatly influenced by a sect of Christianity, the Nestorians. So, in a sense, Christianity helped Islam along.

IIRC, the ancestors of the Jews had an oral tradition, meaning they passed knowledge on verbally. Parts of the Old Testament were written decades even centuries after the actual events. Ever played a game called Broken Telephone or Pass the Message? A phrase or sentence passed from one person to another goes through changes just like gossip. Now I'm not about to say the Pentateuch, Torah or the Old Testament is gossip but a lot may have been lost in the passing on. The version we have might be very different. This also doesn't mean that it's worthless now but you will have to keep a lot of these events in perspective.

Of course you may also believe that it's accurate because God made sure it was written down correctly.

 

Kitrax wrote:
quote:
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quote:
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And you call yourself a Christian?
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What the hell does that mean?!?!? Are you implying that since I haven't memorized the bible that I'm not a Christian? Or are you just a complete moron?!?!? Anyways...unless you re-phrase that comment, you are on my list of people to slap.
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Jesus is the son of god.

Never in his life did he kill anyone, nor did he order anyone to kill anyone. And he didn't have a list to slap people who disagree with him.

You, Kitrax, are contemplating genocide and try to find a way to legitimize it with the bible. If you continue to do so, I seriously doubt that you will ever see the pearly gates.

And if Christanity was a big bright star in the universe, you, Kitrax, would be in the most remote spot of the universe, encased in complete darkness.

Depaara wrote:

at Depaara: I said something about Utah. I am not sure of this, but if you have taken my comment in this way, it wasn't my intention at all to say something bad about mormons in general, nor do I have anything against mormons. This remark was targetet at some specific people in Utah.

[ April 09, 2003, 12:38: Message edited by: Yago ]

 

Here's some lyrics form a 'The The' song from 1989. They could be the current wars theme tune:

Armageddon Days Are Here (Again)

Are you ready for Jesus?
Uh huh
Buddha?
Yeah
Muhammad?
Ok
Well, I like this
Let's Go

They're 5 miles high as the crow flies
Leaving vapour trails against a blood red sky
Moving in from the East towards the West
With Balaclava helmets over their heads, yes

But if you think that Jesus Christ is coming
Honey you've got another thing coming
If he ever finds out who's hi-jacked his name
He'll cut out his heart and turn in his grave

Islam is rising
The Christians mobilising
The world is on its elbows and knees
It's forgotten the message and worships the creeds

It's war, she cried
It's war, she cried
This is war
Drop your possessions all you simple folk
You'll fight them on the beaches in your underclothes
You'll thank the good Lord for raising the Union Jack
You'll watch the ships sail out of harbour
And the bodies come floating back
Watch the ships sail out of harbour
And the bodies come floating back

But if you think that Jesus Christ is coming
Honey you've got another thing coming
If he ever finds out who's hi-jacked his name
He'll cut out his heart and turn in his grave

Islam is rising
The Christians mobilising
The world is on its elbows and knees
It's forgotten the message and worships the creeds

"Get the gun, get the gun, get the gun"
"Stay away from the gun, stay away from the gun"

If the real Jesus Christ were to stand up today
He'd be gunned down cold by the CIA
Oh, the lights that now burn brightest behind stained glass
Will cast the darkest shadows upon the human heart
But God didn't build himself that throne
God doesn't live in Israel or Rome
God doesn't belong to the yankee dollar
God doesn't plant the bombs for Hezbollah
God doesn't even go to church
And God won't send us down to Allah to burn
God will remind us what we already know
That the human race is about to reap what it's sown

Islam is rising
The Christians mobilising
The world is on its elbows and knees
It's forgotten the message and worships the creeds

The world is on its elbows and knees
It's forgotten the message and worships the creeds
The world is on its elbows and knees
It's forgotten the message and worships the creeds
The world is on its elbows and knees
It's forgotten the message and worships the creeds

Armageddon days are here again
Armageddon days are here again
Armageddon days are here again
Armageddon days are here

 

I think in Kitrax defence here, the context of this statement was a "what if this had been done" scenario, not advocating that it should be done now to make for past failure to follow the word of God at the time.

 

Viking has the right of it -- Kitrax has never advocated present day genocide.

Yago, I don't think you were even in on the Random Babbling Post Mormon bashing -- I wasn't referring to you. It's all in pages 12 and 13 of the present Random Babbling Post if you want to see what I'm talking about.

As for you, Kitrax, "poop disturber" is basically a compliment, if a slightly backhanded one!

 

WOW ... lots going on here ... but this is an emotional topic so I guess that is to be appreciated.

I'm not going to quote people ... no time for that (sorry). But a few key points.

1) Kit did not suggest a genocide. He just wondered what our world would be like if the OT commands were followed. The truth is, if Abraham had waited and not slept with Hagar, there never would have been Ishmael, who is the father of the Arab nations. We'll never know, but it is a valid speculation.

2) Jesus did not kill ... but he did tell his disciples to go and buy a sword. As you can see from the book of Revelations, he WILL bring war to the world. His return will not be doves and rainbows ... it is going to be a blood-bath. A key passage:

Revelation 19:11-16 " Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords."

Just one more (hard to pick only two)
Rev 6:1-2 "Now I watched when the Lamb opened one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures say with a voice like thunder, “Come!” And I looked, and behold, a white horse! And its rider had a bow, and a crown was given to him, and he came out conquering, and to conquer."

Right now we live in the era of GRACE. That grace will be withdrawn and people (from all countries and ethnicities) who do deny the name of Christ will be destroyed.

That is what orthodox Christianity has always believed.

3) Jesus is the Son of God.
Fact or belief ... I hold it to be a fact. I'll hold off defending it more since that would be a *whole* other thread and we keep getting off topic here

 

Ah! Someone who finally gets what the topic is really about. This thread was always meant to be a "what if this had been done" scenario, but I guess some people refuse to believe that. Congratulations Viking, and Depaara! You are now on my "People to hug" list.

Unfortunately Yago, you right next to Chevalier on My "People to Slap" list.

 

Interesting quote. Very, very, very interesting quote. And I imagine the fanatics, atheists, agnostics, and just about everyone else would try to get a bullet in him. Even the devout not excluded.

 

O.K. i'm catching a lot of flak i know it's slightly off topic but the flak's comiming from here so i'll post it here.

1st, i'm not a Mormon basher, it started as a typo but it seemed amusing so i left it sorry if i hurt any feelings.

2nd, no i do not worship satan, but i believe each person carries thier faith in the heart, not in those stickers on the back of an overpriced s.u.v. to quote yet another song (this one by Sting) "Men go crazy in congregations, they only get better one by one".

also, that "The The" song is from the album "Mindbomb" if anyone wants to hear it drop me an e-mail.

[ April 09, 2003, 23:14: Message edited by: Greenlion420 ]

 

Hmmm? really? Why would I?

 

Well, Morgoth, you seem to have gotten riled up over religion more than once. I mean, you'd probably regard Him as a silly person, right? Claiming to be the Son of God, dying for your sins, and all that other strange stuff. Yeah, I'd get pretty riled up too.

And well, yeah, I was going under the assumption that He wouldn't exactly be wearing sandals and having brown, shoulder-length hair too.

 

Centuries even They only really began to write down their tradition in Babylon, on a larger scale at least.

Kitrax: That 'moron' is your idea. You imply that I imply you're a moron. Rephrase please And if I told you you weren't Christian because of not having memorised the whole Bible I couldn't call myself one either. Well, I doubt it's even technically possible anyway.

The matter I tend to stress in this topic is interpretation. The Bible is not a dissertation written by a today's Westerner loving numbers and cold logics. As nearly all Eastern literature it's rich in style, lavish in descriptions and comparisons and many a time elaborately metaphorical. What is more, several important parts are speeches - of the prophets having to communicate the God's teachings to the people of that specific time and place. And thus the outcome differs from the way today's teologists put thoughts in words.

Another thing is that we by definition can't know or understand God fully - otherwise either He wouldn't be a god or we would all be. Besides, God is omniscent, which results in that He has *seen* it all. He knows the various possible courses of events before they happen and those that only could possibly happen. This changes the perspective - for us though it's beyond cognition and even more so is God Himself.