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Elendil, I really don't know how to explain AGAIN to you how your use of "irony" about my joke IS equating the U.S. and terrorists. It should be very, very obvious.

And instead of responding to my arguments that neither I nor my jokes were anti-Arab, you just decided to call me a Nazi. Good use of logic there. I feel so humiliated. Hooray for you. Sorry I hurt your little feelings. I didn't know you were a Taleban supporter.

The EU did not bail out the dollar. Now you're just hallucinating.

[This message has been edited by Shralp (edited October 08, 2001).]

 

There is no disaster in the last 50 years where no jokes where made about. You can laugh about some of them, just don't forget the serious part of this. An dknow where the border lays, where you can laugh about and not.. For example about what is NOT funny:

I received by mailed picture of WTC while people where falling and jumping out. In front, you saw Geri Spice with: It's raining men (her last single)

Jokes like that make me sick and piss me off.

 

that is sick

very very sick

 

Okay, Shralp. If you insist on bringing my ass up the wall for equating the US and the terrorists then at least explain to me how did I do that. Please.
I'm gonna repeat for the thousaint time that it was you who made a rasistic joke with parking-lots, Israeli protectorats and bending over for the last time. Then I just made an ironic statement in order to reply to Nobleman's trying-to-be-either-sarcastic-or-funny post and to try and proove my point about your stupid jokes. If making such an ironic remark is equating the US with the terrorists, then Sorcerer's Place is a porn site...

About me not responding your comments, I think you should read my posts again. I did reply to your "timing" arguments, if that is what you think. Like I said, nothing gives you the right to make such stupid jokes about protectorates and so on, just like it would be a totally shitty attempt of a joke if someone posted your country turned into Iraq protectorates and so on, AND just like it was completely wrong to kill innocent people in New York. The US has the right to punish the terrorists and the Taleban regime, if they supported and trained the terrorists.

About the Euro again, I have never seen any info or articles about the US helping the Euro, but I'm not gonna say you were hallucinating just because *I* didn't see it. I never heared of such a thing, but I'm not gonna say you're having a day off reality because I really didn't hear it.
Yes, as much as it aches you, the little poor mouse the EU, along with the other allies and rodents, helped stabilize the big lion's Dollar. That's why it's value didn't decrase much, after the tragedy. I don't know exactly which macroeconomical moves were used, so I'm sorry if I can't draw it all out to you. And, Shralp, I'm not gonna pound that in your face and expect your gratitude, because EU and the US are allies and allies do such things for their own political motives and well-being.

About the hurt feelings, your sarcasm is brilliant. If it gives you a major chubby to make a crybaby out of me, then go and knock yourself out. I'm just gonna say that it was you first who showed "hurt feelings" because of a joke.

And one more thing, Shralp. I didn't call you a Nazi, I said you were practicing a nazi point of wiev humor with your peace offers. But, since you are calling me a Taleban supporter, I guess I can return the favor and say to you that you are one fucked up NeoNazi asshole! I hope you really like the swastika you bear so proudly. Good day to you, "arian brother"...

 

How did we get so wretched off? was it me again. Perhaps it was, perhaps it wasn't. I am sorry Elendil if I made you look like a fool. I was just startled at your harsh attack on Shralps joke. And didn't have anything sensible to write. This is the second time in short intervals that I really regret some of my posts. Let me try and mend a bit, if I may.

What are the issues here? a joke about a chatting session between Bush and Bin Laden. I too only focussed on the part that Bush was made a horny, rambling dimwitt. And Bin Laden was only trying to promote his views. Perhaps that was simply not intended and perhaps you and everyone but Shralp and me saw past this. It is fair enough. I'll not press forward for anyone to see things from our narrow perspective in this matter. Whatever flaming both you and Shralp have left to tell before moving on is non of my business.

The second part is the more or less american patriotism portrayed in a series of pictures brought by Shralp. He calls it real WTC jokes and I call them american. I still think some of them are good. And funny. But that is because I see past the narrow perspective that these pictures are rasistic and repulsive. I see them as a strong willed portray of the american will to not letting someone thrash them, portraying pictures of strage traditions, and portraying visions of an exaggerated US act. They can be seen as rasism and rude dimwitt jokes, but perhaps that was not intended. And I choose to see past this and see it as funny. Can you Elendil? Now the coin has been flipped from the first joke, where Shralp and I were blinded to see the fact that making Bin Laden a clever guy was not intended. And everyone but us are blinded to see the fact that the pictures should portray rasism and rude manners was not intended.

All very confusing, and it has indeed made us flame and accuse eachother of the worse things that I could ever imagine would happen in my days at SP in some long, tirering and excessive posts. It reminds me of a simple saying. "to understand is to forgive" It is hard from time to time. But I hope this is the time.

[This message has been edited by Nobleman (edited October 09, 2001).]

 

Sigh.

Ok, one more time, just for you. By the fact that you took something I did (naming some Middle East states as Israeli protectorates) and flip-flopped those nations for U.S. states and Israeli for bin Laden in order to ask me what I thought of that possibility -- well, that equation is comparing the U.S. to terrorists. It's pretty simple.

The reason I said "I didn't know you were a Taleban supporter" is because you said your feelings were hurt (when I attacked Taleban supporters.)

Again: the reason your "you're a rasistic nazi" line doesn't work, other than your spelling, is that I didn't include all Arab states or all Arabs. Ever. In anything. I forget where the picture of people bowing came from, but they were Taleban, I believe. That's why I targeted them.

Is everything clear to you now?

 

Heh heh. BTA. if this is a Rancor thread, then I was wondering which one of us is Luke skywalker?

Anyway I have even more quotes

This one is from Alexander Dumas.

"Don't ever argue, you'll convince nobody. Attitudes are like nails. The more you hammer on them the more they get stuck."

EDITED HERE: A rancor is ALSO the monster Luke fights in jabba's palace.

[This message has been edited by Nobleman (edited October 09, 2001).]

 

Greetings everyone.

I've been following the replies on the board and I just want to say that I did not expect things to... escalate...the way they have.

Humor is a very unpredictable thing. its different for everyone. What's funny to one person may be offensive to another. And here's the great dilemma about things like this: who's to say which one is right?

Humor, I believe, is a tool. Sure, we can call it a manifestation of a positive outlook, a subconscious phenomenon that occurs naturally in human beings which may or may not be defined by culture, tradition, values, etc., etc. We can even over simplify and say "humor=funny". We can define humor lots of ways yet I believe that one thing we might all agree on is that humor is a tool. Why? Because it can be used. For whatever reason, as a release or a reaction, whether knowingly or unknowingly, we use humor.

And just like any tool, we, as individuals or as groups, our use of humor determines the immediate results and the eventual consequences. When I read the jokes above I found some funny and I was tickled. Others were too. It was an honest reaction. At that moment, the thought of being offensive didn't occur to me, nor was I out to hurt somebody by belittling their sensibilities.

Things didn't turn out that way for some however. To make a long story short, tirades were exchanged and more fuel was added to a growing fire. I believe things may have even gotten personal?

The sad thing about it is, and we all know this, is that we can disguise spite, bitterness, and cruelty in a semblance of humor, rationalizing that if our delivery was met with a negative reaction, then we ourselves our not to blame, because the other guy had no sense of humor at all.

Let's not provoke each other into using cruel words, okay? It doesn't help the situation any. We all have our own ideas, emotions and opinions, and we know that its diffcult to see them criticized and disagreed with. but the same goes for those at the other side of the fence, so to speak.

I believe that the purpose is getting our point across, that it is understood by others. Taint it with sanctimoniousness, narrow mindedness and cruel intentions then we turn our listeners away. We defeat our own purpose. Thus, it is a great tragedy to label them as people with closed minds, because we didn't open ours to begin with.

Please folks, don't get me wrong. The arguments are with merit. We should just be more mature and responsible in choosing our words and watching our own prejudices. We could do away with the hurtful remarks.

Remember:
RUDENESS IS THE WEAK MAN'S IMITATION OF STRENGTH.

More power to us all!

 

Wow!

I can't believe this thread got soooo big.

Sheesh. I guess lots of people really felt strongly about that joke eh?

 

Shralp, you didn't name "some" of the Middle East States as Israeli protectorates, you turned the whole Middle East, some of Africa and some of Soutwest Asia into Israeli protectorates. But nevermind that, when I tried to ironically turn the joke to how it would look like if some extremist who was on the terrorists' side posted it on the net, just like you did, you said that I'm equating the US and the terrorists.
No, that is simply not true. I never did anything that would even allude for the US being the country full of terrorists. So I really can't see your point. That was just irony. Irony to proove the point that it wouldn't be right to turn the whole US into some protectorate, just as it is wrong to turn the whole Middle East and more into Israeli protectorate, even in a joke. I know you wouldn't be happy if someone posted such a map of the US with the inscription "peace offer".

Then, you say that you called me a Taleban supporter because my feelings were hurt? I said that, if you are pissed at a joke that laughs at your pres. and Bin Laden (with nothing against citizens of US, or the victims), then imagine how it makes me pissed when you post a map of entire countries turned to Isreali protectorates or US parking spaces, or when you post a picture of Muslims praying with the label "bend over and kiss your ass goodbye". And now I am a Taleban supporter? Why? Because I don't like stupid jokes that look like mass genocide or death threats to people who are praying? Yes, now you say that they are Taleban. But I still find it distasteful to make such jokes which call for death to people whether they are Taleban or some other.

Now Nobleman asks me if I can see past some of the presumptions about your jokes and see the funny side. No, I can't. It's not funny to me. I still think that those jokes are stupid and rasistic just as I think that the first joke was making fun out of two stupid people who deserve to be mocked. Is portraying the US president as a horny dimbwitt saying that the whole nation is idiotic? Of course not. Is portraying Bin Laden like a lunatic that he is, saying that every Muslim is a terrorist? No. I still think that the "So, what r u wearin?" bit is funny, whether Bush, Bin Laden or Ho Chi Min said it.

And Nobleman, my first reply wasn't harsh at all. I was simply saying what I thought after I had seen his jokes I didn't like. It started getting harsh after I got some comments from Shralp about being an anti-American or an internet asshole and some pretty nice thoughts about America being the saviour of Eastern Europe and the whole planet. After he called me a Taleban supporter, I simply returned the favor.

So, Shralp, it seems to me that you don't know much about the whole situation that was going on in the Middle East during the last 50 years. The reasons for what is happening today are very complicated and have much ground in what happened troughout those 50 years and more. I'm just gonna say that you think about the both sides, not only your own, and then start posting jokes or solutions to this problem. And I'm not going to split hairs about jokes any more, because I see I can't proove shit to you and I'm really getting tired...

PS. Sorry about my spelling, but I think you know that my native isn't English

 

To be quite honest i am surprised by all of you. I found that funny and i have no difficulties in saying that. I thought the wtc incident was absolutely terrible, but when i read that, nomatter how much i tried i could not stop myself roaring with laughter.
Sometimes a little piss taking can lighten the atmoshpere and let people remeber that life isn't to be taken seriously.
It is obvious that if there is a god he thinks this is all one great big joke, so why the hell can't we laugh.

 

geeeez. Talk about missing my point.

Ok. Don't use the word harsh then. In short; You were bringing doubt to Shralps ability to make fun. And he is questioning yours. What is a joke and what is fun? Apperently you have a very differnt definition than Shralp and I. It is not wrong in any way. It is just the way it is. How much longer must we tredge around in that? or tredge on eachother? Since this has turned into mudtrashing.

Anyway Eveningdrive explained it much better that I did.

I didn't like that Bush was made fun of and Bin Laden was made more sensitive no matter how little it has to do with the american people. You did. No big deal.

I didn't see the pictures by Shralp as rasism nore repulsive in any way. You did. No big deal. We are obviously different. So be it.

[This message has been edited by Nobleman (edited October 10, 2001).]

 

"Anway, what r u wearing?" would fit Clinton far better than anyone else I could think of...

 

And just to continue to cause problems, here're links to stories about the U.S. (and others) bailing out the Euro. Twice, even.
www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=digest&contentId=A62114-2000Sep22
www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=digest&contentId=A35745-2000Oct18

These are by the Washington Post, one of the largest, most respected newspapers in the U.S. I think only the New York Times and L.A. Times have larger domenstic circulation.

 

I'll add my opinion.

I keep up with the geopolitical situation as well as I can due to my young age and restricted resources, and I'd like to add my $.02. (And no, that does not indicate that I'm American. I am NOT! and that capitalization does not indicate I an anti-American either.)

I found the first one quite funny. The "What are you Wearing" part was fun, but more Clinton than Bush. I think it was a good thing that the one who wrote it had Bin Laden add intelligent comments, because they ridiculed the entire thing in itself; it was irony on both sides, as well as the whole piece of work.

I do not take sides. I... ah, who the hell am I kidding, I do take sides. In a way. I'll probably just piss off everyone who reads this.

I do not say that the attack was justified. It was not. But it could be, if one took a certain point of view. It was not evil, in my opinion, but... desperate, I'd say. It was a way to wake up the world to see what is going other than just shrugging it off as a few fanatics going suicide attacks far away from home.
Fanatics, yes. Suicide, yes. Far from home? No. It was a way for them to get publicity. And so they did.

And the way it was done was ingenious. This attack was planned by a genius. I have said that and I will say it again. Twisted, yes, but genius nonetheless.

To quote Star Wars, extended Universe, The Last Command, "But it was so artistically done."
The quote was made by a dying Grand Admiral about his own death, being killed by a trusted bodyguard because of the wrongs inflicted to the guard's people.

I think it fits here quite well.

I am not supporting the terrorists. I am just telling my opinion about the attack itself, not by whom it was made or why it was made. Ah Hell, I am doing it.

What I am trying to say is that... I don't know it myself.

And yes, before you flame me:
I have been diagnosed as psychotic, violent, maniacall, paranoid and bunch of other stuff. I barely avoided getting throwed ointo an asylum ye´sterday. I was a criminal, and now I am an academic. I am quite clearly insane. Happy, now?

Ara
(Having one helluva headache & PMS...)

 

Nobleman, I didn't miss your point. I totaly understood what you said. I will stay behind what I said, but I won't split hairs about jokes anymore. Okay.

Shralp, you really insist on bringing out the big role of the US had as the saviour of the human race. I told you I already belived what you said. Sometimes I really don't know if you read my posts at all, so I'm condemned to repeat myself. Hence, about the Euro - so what? Like I said, it is not the first time that the US has helped it's allies and it's not the last time. Same on the other side, EU and the other allies have helped the US before and they will help again. For their own motives. Not for filantropism.

And now I understand why you didn't even react to anything what I said about the US actions on the Middle East. Because you read Washington Post. A respected newspaper yes, but also a respected Republican newspaper which is a tool for promoting US politics, not criticizing it's mistakes. I'm gonna give you a small fragment from an interview with Ammiel Alcalay, a college professor on Harvard. The interview came out in a croatian newspaper and, to be honest, I never heared about the guy, but he is presented as one of the best world experts for Izraeli-Arabian relations. I agree with what he says.

Here it goes:
"If the government, the bussiness groups or the media are affraid of the public getting too much information, that means that they are affraid of the public getting too much information about the Middle East.
That is one of the hardest topics for conversation in the US on the popular, academic, cultural and political level. The reasons for that are the military-strategical relations with Israel and the unproportional American expense of the energetic supplies in the world, which leads to it's support to unpopular and tyrannical regimes, like in Saudi Arabia and some other counties of the Persian Gulf.
Since more and more political, cultural and historical informations are becoming avaliable, it is becoming harder to keep the illusion about the policy which, in long terms, is not in the interest of the American public. Some Israeli politicians and journalists have hailed this attack as a 'positive thing' because it will probably bring together Americans and Israelians much tighter than before. The cynicism and demagogy or such feelings is undescribable and much more dangerous than the spontainious expressions of support to the attacks from a small number of Palestinians or some other which have been under the rain of american bombs for many years, without an umbrella. The Arabs have remained the last group in America which can be put under sterotypical and rasistical prejudices, without much opposition."

This has been translated from Croatian, so I appologize for my mistakes...

 

To Arabwel

what is genious about flying a plane into a building? What does it take?
a) a hijack.
b) a pilot.

Which one is genious? We were very lucky that they didn't ram the buildings at high noon, when the WTC was full. Thank the lord!
It almost couldn't have been planned worse with the resources they had available in my opinion. One plane crashed, taken over by ordinary people and they rammed the WTC when it was 1/4 full of people. The plane that should hit Pentagon crashed a few hundred meters away and slided into the building. I thank God that those who did it were all but genious.

And then SW quotes and references. Each to every ones taste.

Had the Terrorist had half the chance they would have killed more americans without hesitating. That excactly makes the attacks, let me use your words, twisted and desperate. Unjustified And made by fanatics. Those words are the labels I put on Terrorist. All the same words as you use.

In my book that is evil. But not in yours?? But then again you write that you don't know what you are trying to say.

To Elendil and Shralp

EDITED HERE: I just want to support Elendil's ideals. One has to look at sources from both sides of the problem. That in my opinion makes a person more trustworthy and versatile. But with that said, Elendil. I think Shralp does study both sides of the coin. And I would appreciate your comment on the Harvard professor's speech. Do you agree with it all? it implies what?

a) that the US army should withhold information about warfare in the middle east because it is not in the interest of the population of america?

b) That the uneven US foreign aid leads to Anger in tyrannical countries as Saudi Arabia?

c) That US attacks are made to get better relations with Israel. And this is much more dangerous than the attacks from small countires which have been bombed by US for years and without an umbrella?

I simply don't understand the conclusion of your translation either. I am sorry if I am a dimwitt. And your english is great so it is not your fault but the professors.

[This message has been edited by Nobleman (edited October 10, 2001).]

 

Well Shralp, everything for the order of making money right. That little amount of money is nothing compared to what is traded between Europe and US. You wouldn't want that trade to go to hell, so what do you do, you add a little help, so you can keep making your money.

Politicians talks the talk, money walks the walk

 

You are so sinister Lokken.

With a similar taste of cynisism I could state that You only post here to be noticed and get respect.

[This message has been edited by Nobleman (edited October 10, 2001).]