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How much do you like Trump?

Discussion in 'Alley of Lingering Sighs' started by Dice, Nov 12, 2020.

?

On a scale of 1 - 10 how much do you like Trump. 1 - Hate, 10-Love

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  1. Dice

    Dice ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran

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    I'm waiting for tomorrow like a little kid for Christmas. I really hope I get what I wished for. Going to hang my stocking up in the American senate.
     
  2. SlickRCBD Gems: 25/31
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    I really don't think it matters that much at this point. It's only a week.
    They don't need to impeach him to charge him for the crimes. It takes longer than a week for the police to put together a case and the prosecutors to convene a Grand Jury. I doubt the investigations have even concluded.
    By the time they are ready, he'll be out of office. No reason they can't charge him then.

    I think the whole impeachment thing is more political than anything else at this point. It's about the Republicans in Congress distancing themselves from Trump by doing this when it no longer really matters in the grand scheme of things.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not a Trump apologist, and I believe he should be charged for inciting a riot at the very least, but given the time to put together trials, and how close the end of his term is, it seems more a political gesture than a moral or legal one.

    That said, I wanted him gone when they impeached him the first time, and believe they should have voted so at the time. I know I said as much back then on several forums and in the real world, although I don't recall if I said that on this particular forum or not.
     
  3. Dice

    Dice ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran

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    I don't care if it's a political gesture. He was such a smug bastard with the first impeachment trial so a second impeachment that actually sticks will really go nicely into the history books. After that, let him rot in jail until he hangs himself like his buddy Epstein.
     
  4. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Why do you persist with this strawman? Fine if you think he purposefully incited those crazies, but that was never the position I took. I simply said he will leave and not have to be dragged out once his all his options are gone.
     
  5. Merlanni

    Merlanni ★ SPS Account Holder Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    If you impeach him does that not closes the door for a 2024 comeback. That alone is enough to do it. If not,. he can wiggle his way out of prison with by throwing some cash around(not his) and run for 2024.
     
  6. Tarrasque

    Tarrasque Whoever said Paladins had to be charismatic? ★ SPS Account Holder Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    He would lose some benefits if he was impeached and convicted as a President. Given that Mitch McConnell has said they won't hold the conviction vote until after Biden becomes President, that obviously cannot happen. https://eu.statesman.com/story/news...d-trumps-post-presidency-benefits/6654559002/

    They can in theory pass legislation post the trial to prevent him from 2024 and/or the benefits but you can almost guarantee that would be portrayed as Democrat viciousness against a president solely because he was Republican.
     
  7. dmc

    dmc Speak softly and carry a big briefcase Staff Member Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    No, they can also vote to disqualify him from holding office as well. And that does not appear to be dependent on whether he is holding office as of the time of the impeachment trial.
     
  8. Shadowcouncil Gems: 29/31
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    They should let him make his appearance in Baldur's Gate 3 for example. Would be a great character. Patriotic Chaotic Evil Shaman / Shapeshifter :-)

    Because he knows the only alternative would be him dragged out of the White House trying to hold his chair, desk or something, broadcasted everywhere and watched by anyone worldwide. For a narcist, that would be so shameful that leaving willingly suddenly seems like a good alternative ;-)

    Curious, not sure if enough Republicans will support it. It's difficult for some of them as well, the party is devided. Is it better for peace's sake (and to keep most voters attached) to keep it this way? For the short term, I guess it is. But all republicans who are not happy with Trump and his course also want to be sure he well not make another appearance in 2024 and though it seems more unlikely now, it is still not impossible. When he is impeached (two third of the votes needed) he will most likely also be banned for returning in 2024 (only the majority of the votes needed)
    So for the long term it might be the best for the Republican party or at least for those who want to get rid of Trumpism. In that way, the Republicans are on a crossroad and have to decide which way they will move. Apart from that, it can also be a statement: The president is never bigger than the law, the constitution. It might be the most powerful man in the States, it doesn't allow him to misbehave like this.
     
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  9. SlickRCBD Gems: 25/31
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    I think the fact that the Senators are planning on waiting until the 19th, instead of finishing this today, or if they needed time to deliberate reconvening tomorrow morning proves that the whole impeachment is just a political gesture rather than born of any real fears of Trump doing something and needing to be removed from office.

    Again, I hate Trump, and do not excuse his behavior.
     
  10. dmc

    dmc Speak softly and carry a big briefcase Staff Member Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    Ummmm, the senate is not in session right now and it would take an agreement of the majority leader and minority leader to call an emergency session. McConnell has said he isn't doing that.

    I am sure at least 50 senators would very much like to get started now so it could be done before Biden takes office, but that would mean McConnell would have to agree and he really has not agreed with Democrats very much in the last dozen plus years.
     
  11. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Exactly! That's what I've been saying! :)
     
  12. Shadowcouncil Gems: 29/31
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    Yeah, great minds think alike ;-)

    You shouldn't hate him, nor the stupid people that follow and believe hem still. Your hate will not change them, it will only change yourself. Hate cannot drive out hate, only love can (Dr. Martin Luther King)

    And I've seen some anti-Trump people becoming more and more mad in their attempts to prove that they are right and others are wrong, sometimes becoming unreasonable themselves. Reminds me of what Nietzsche said (and every Baldur's Gate fan will know this quote)

    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster... when you gaze long into the abyss, the abyss also gazes into you..."
     
  13. SlickRCBD Gems: 25/31
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    I don't understand how they can even have the impeachment proceedings after the Inauguration.
    So basically it is the only exception to Double Jeopardy but by the same token the only penalty they can impose is removal from office and being stripped of his pension, making it somewhat more like the difference between a civil case and a criminal one, which as everybody who is familiar with O.J. Simpson knows you can be sued and face a civil suit for the same act even after being found not guilty in criminal court

    Again, I don't see the point. If Trump was really that dangerous they would have finished the same day or the next day, instead of adjourning and deciding to do this after he has left office?
    What good is kicking him out of office after the 20th?
    Granted, stripping him of the pension and free Secret Service protection as well as forever dashing his dreams of running in 2024 or '28 is possible, but the wait seems dumb.
    I try not to give him too much attention.
    Trumps hits too many of my buttons from bad authority figures back when I was in school.
    I really don't want to derail this, but I have a hard time respecting authority because of bad examples when I was in 2nd grade, 3rd, 8th, and high school.
    Trump hits a lot of the buttons because he reminds me of those authorities and their hypocrisy.
    He's the type of authority I hate, the "Your rules are not my rules" type, and "I can do that because I'm in charge, nobody else can do that", or "I'm in charge, I get to change the rules when I want" or "The rules are interpreted the way I want them to be". Also the hypocrite, which I also hate.

    I've spent most of the last four years trying to do what lots of bad authorities told me to do when being bullied/harassed. "Just ignore them" and they won't stop.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2021
  14. dmc

    dmc Speak softly and carry a big briefcase Staff Member Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    Slick, let's take it step by step:

    First, the House of Representatives needs to vote on impeachment. If a majority of them vote yes, they send articles of impeachment to the Senate for a trial. Impeachment is not civil or criminal, it is entirely political.

    It derives from English common law and was brought over by the founders and incorporated into the Constitution. It acts as a limitation on the power of government officials.

    So, Trump has been impeached for a second time. The Senate will take that up when they return to session as the two parties' leaders did not jointly call them back for an emergency session. As for what happens with that trial, that is up to the Senate. They will have some sort of trial and vote. If two thirds of the Senators present vote to convict, that means that the President is removed from office. If the President is already not in office, or if he is removed, the Senate can then vote a second time to preclude him from EVER holding federal office again. I think that vote is a simple majority, but I am not 100% certain.

    That last bit is the important part. Republicans might have an interest in that so that they can try to untether their party from Trump. We'll see if they get there. There is historical precedent for the Senate to have the trial after the office holder is out of office. There was a Secretary of War in the Grant administration that was taking bribes and got wind that he was going to be impeached so he raced to tender his resignation and was out of office by the time the impeachment was voted on by the House or sent to the Senate. They went through it anyway and voted, but did not reach the needed votes to do that (majority but not two thirds) that he could never hold office again.

    So, this is really not about Trump's pension, it's about him ever holding office again. And it's also about showing that his behavior cannot be normalized. As Susan Collins said after the first impeachment that she felt he had learned his lesson, well, I think this proves that the only lesson Trump has ever learned is that he gets away with everything.
     
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  15. Dice

    Dice ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran

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    Thank you for explaining the process so clearly, dmc. So apart from the impeachment process to disallow him from running again, what is the likelihood that he will be laid with criminal charges after he is finally out of office?
    '
     
  16. dmc

    dmc Speak softly and carry a big briefcase Staff Member Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    That's completely different and it is up to a couple of different people. He's probably liable to be charged for both state and federal crimes. Specifically, what he did in Georgia violates Georgia state laws and federal laws and there has been an ongoing New York investigation into him for violating New York state laws. No matter what he tries to do vis-a-vis self pardons or resigning early to get Mike Pence to pardon him, he cannot get out of liability for state crimes (federal pardons do not impact state crimes at all).

    So, the attorney general (or whatever the specific title of the prosecutors in New York and Georgia that are investigating him), will make the decision on charging him and he will have to defend himself or risk all kinds of issues if they do decide to bring charges. How that plays out will be up to the prosecutors, the judges, the appellate courts, etc. in the two states.

    He also faces federal charges for his role in inciting the insurrection/riot on 1/6/21. Washington DC is actually pretty complicated. Its criminal enforcement is mainly done by the US Attorney for the District of Columbia, who is a federal appointee. There is an attorney general for DC, but that person is actually only responsible for civil enforcement and minor criminal enforcement. It's likely that if he gets a pardon, he can avoid DC criminal prosecution.

    However, if he does not resign and, instead, attempts to pardon himself, the next step would be to see whether any federal US Attorney wants to prosecute him for federal crimes. If so, he's going to inevitably claim his self-pardon insulates him from such prosecution, which will likely lead to a ruling at the trial court level followed by at least one appeal to see what the courts think of that. My suspicion is that the courts will not think kindly of that as the Constitutional interpretation is likely that no man can be his own judge and jury, which, by invoking the pardon power, is exactly what he will be pretending to do. (Pardons actually involve recognition of a crime and then, essentially, avoiding the consequence.) However, it really is not at all clear cut and there is plenty of room to reason that the pardon power is essentially unlimited. It's an ugly moral issue to allow it, but if the judges that are looking at the issue decide to fall back solely on the language of the Constitution, there's a solid argument that the only limitation is impeachment, so I am almost interested in see what happens given that he has, in fact, been impeached. Not sure how that would play out.

    Bottom line is that I expect that someone, somewhere, will charge him criminally for something under state law, which he will have to actually defend. How that goes is another matter.
     
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