how can a loving God and evil co-exist?

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I find the question rather strange and almost laughable. Let's reverse it and ask "How can an evil god exist with so much good in the world?"

To me these questions don't prove anything other than we have nothing better to do with our minds or time.

 

@ Khazraj Just trying to move forward in the quest for a quiet mind. A quiet mind would be a lot more useful towards practical matters I think.

 

You are right, but I find that these old, old rehashed questions are not always asked because any sort of answer is desired.

As far as I'm concerned the original question is "irrational" or "illogical" meaning that it doesn't really have an answer since we can't "know" the mind of God.

Anyway...

 

Hey joacqin, not dodging your question. Just haven't felt like talking about this issue. I will answer you, and not condescend to you, soon.

Sorry if I've seemed to state the obvious in my replies, I try to assume that any reader knows absolutely nothing. I also stand in front of mirrors and admire myself talk!

 

It is always interesting to refresh ones memory but as I am very interested in seeing your, or rather christianities take on that situation/question. If you dont answer soon I will assume that you concede the point.

 

I'll say what I think about this..
Imagine life without evil, a World without evil..
Could such thing excist while us, humans dwell on the face of the earth?
I think not, but I also have a Motto on this thing.. It's based on my religion which is half Christian half Wiccan, "There is no good without evil, and vice versa".. We choose how we live our lives, we make choices help or not to help that old lady over the road, we choose what is evil, what is good and so forth..

But I still say, There is no good without evil.
and I don't buy nearly a Word the Bible says, since, basically it's written by the hand of man, atleast the present edition, so there are many editions on bible, henceforth causing the original idea to be forgotten and the original purpose have probably been corrupted into one typers (IE. lets say in the year 1470) point of view. I can't excatly say what I mean, since my English isn't so good to clarify what I mean, but I hope you get the picture somewhat, or atleast the frames

I say God has nothing to do with the present bible, and the world we're living, we have the power to decide what we do here.. I just wish they'd leave dear Mother Nature alone, since I think the way we are living here, we have maximum of 100 years left on this planet..

Like they said in Matrix, "You are the disease of this planer, a Cancer.." but I have no idea what is the cure.. Death? Don't think so.. but bah, now I'm blabbering here and you're probably sleeping

My 20 cents there

 

Oh, that's easy, I am already living a world without evil

 

Good for you, Wish I could be as optimistic

But everywhere I go, I see something which my morality/ethics claim evil.

I feel bad for living this life of mine, when people otherside the planet live on cardboardboxes, hunger etc etc etc..

And I do agree with shura about the Christianity..
Howcome a murder rapist go to heaven/paradise if he starts to believe in the moment of his death?
Howcome such a crime can be unforgiven so easily?
It disgusts me too

and people actually could exploit it. "A bug in the all mighty's plan" -when is the update, and what is it?

But everyone is definelty entiteled to their opinions, and I try to understand everyone's opinions

"Deal with others as you wish them to deal with you"

damn my harsh and not-so-knowledgeable english, I wish these conversations were in finnish

 

Gandalf the Green Sorcerer (wow, we both have colored names!), please re-read my earlier bit (on page 2) about the textual integrity of the Bible. There are legitimate arguments about whether or not the Bible is true, but centuries of lower criticism has established that the Bible's message dates not back to 1470 AD or even 470 AD.

You write that there have been many different editions of the Bible, and that's completely true - thousands, actually. But the important detail is that these translations aren't in sequence with each other, but stem from the same ancient texts. There's a perception that the text starts with the Greek, goes to the Vulgate, then to the King James, then to the New King James, then to the NIV, etc., each time collecting more and more errors. But each new translation draws directly from the oldest available manuscripts. The Vulgate, KJV, NKJV, NIV, random-translation-du-jour are each directly retranslated from the original Greek and Hebrew. So one can argue that there were errors and untruths in the original texts, but nothing new has been accumulated during the centuries.

As for your assent to Shura's "disgust" with God's forgiveness - sounds like you're claiming that mercy beyond a certain level is intrinsically evil. If that's the case, then the Christian God is as rotten as they come, because even during the most heinous act of all history - the death of God - Christ chose to forgive His murderers.

joacquin, as for your question, of course I...uh...what was your question? Let me check...oh, here it is! Yeah, you've creatively restated the same basic question - if God can stop us from imitating suicidal lemmings, isn't He criminally negligent if He doesn't stop us?

To clarify our discussion thus far:

1) The existence of any evil anywhere is proof that God is actively evil, criminally negligent, or nonexistent.

2) Evil exists.

3) Therefore God is a) a divine sadist (Shura's take - His Dark Materials is fiction, fella!), or b) morally culpable for His lack of compassion (seemingly your claim, joacquin), or c) an imaginary creation of religious manipulators.

Or, according to Manus:

1) The existence of any evil anywhere is proof that God is actively evil, criminally negligent, or nonexistent.

2) Evil does NOT exist.

3) Therefore we cannot discern God's existence or character from our misperceptions of evil.

Or, according to Christianity:

1) Evil exists.

2) God exists, and has proven His active love, compassion, mercy, justice, and goodness through His creation, His death on the cross, and His ongoing care for both Christians and non-Christians - as well as His divine opposition to evil.

3) Therefore, the existence of evil anywhere does not prove that God is actively evil, criminally negligent, or nonexistent.

I can't think of any good way to logically "prove" which one of these three is correct. All three are coherent within themselves, if you accept their premises. But the premises of the first two "solutions" don't fit reality as well as the third. Manus' solution hardly fits our daily confrontation with evil and pain, both from others and from within. Nor should we have much confidence in our self-righteous frustration that God does not act exactly as we would wish; if we acknowledge that we occasionally do evil ourselves, then that calls into question our ability to reasonably (and authoritatively) judge God based on either our own imperfect standard or an ideal we have personally selected.

So, three answers to your question, joacquin! Pick the one you like best!

 

I think this may be the premises asserted by some BUT I don't think it is complete. The problem of evil purports to show that God is not omnipotent OR omniscent OR omnibenevolent. God could be any combination of the two aspects and circumvent the problem of evil. Your premises only pertains to one of these aspects the way I read it (benevloence; either evil of ambivalent the way it looks to me).

It is also possible to bite the bullet and say that evil exists but this world is as perfect as possible. One could think that God is omnipotent without actually thinking that he can make 2+2=5.

 

A nice answer, Grey Magistrate, but I believe joacquin was refferring to the belief that "if you do the wrong thing I'll torture you for eternity" clause.

However, I do agree with what you outlined, especially your conclusion, but I still think (of course ) that my solution can be correct as well.

I do not deny pain, nor wrong-doing, nor immorality. If you want to call these things evil then I am happy to accept that. I refute only 'Evil' as a force that opposes good, or as something intrinsic in itself. Things may be wrong, but they are not evil, only misguided or painful or selfish, and eventually some good can come from any 'evil' act - so how can something which produces good be evil?

And if you accept the Christian interpretation of the divine, as a loving good force, and accept the phrase - in him we live and breathe and have our being - then how can anything that is a part of God be evil? We may do the wrong thing (if we are not controlled by fate that is, but that is another matter, and highly debatable) as an aspect of free will, but can this ever truly be evil if we are but a reflection of the mind of god?

I do not think that the existence of evil as such, as the absence of what is immediately good, necssitates the non-existance of a loving god (for those of you who still choose to believe in such an outdated notion as evil ), only that we are not presently in alignment with it. Free-will would indeed suggest the good nature of such a force, it is only the concept of Hell which makes no sense. It is true that we cannot comprehend the actions of something so far removed from us, and thus I can comprehend that things that go wrong should not always be viewed as such - but an eternity of damnation is a far stretch, and does not seem very forgiving.

Please, someone shed light on this issue from a christian perspective. I have my own views on the cycle of life and death, but will not drag them out here. I can understand the christian interpretation of the fire-and-brimstone vengence even, but this goes beyond that into cold-hearted malice, to my inferior mortal mind at least

Edit: I am reminded of a quote here, which may shed light on this situation from all sides.

 

No, you're right, Laches. But joacquin's example - saving someone suicidal - didn't seem to take into account gradations between a God that is omnipotent or merely super-potent. Even if God isn't omnipotent, surely He should have sufficient power to do a lot more than He's doing now, since fixing evil seems so simple: just whack the other guy when he sins (Shura's complaint against evildoers either being forgiven or waiting too long to be punished) and gently mindmeld me before I sin (free will is not a fair exchange for evil).

"As perfect as possible"? I'll bite that bullet - I'm a determinist - but I'd want to be very, very, very careful how we define "as perfect as possible". We'd have to exclude upfront the premise that "a world as perfect as possible would necessarily be free from evil", and I don't think anyone else on this board is prepared to do so. And I'd have to emphasize that determinism is separate from Christianity (I don't know any other Christians who are determinists, even though the two aren't incompatible) and not necessary for an answer to the problem of evil. I think the traditional Christian answer works fine without resorting to a claim that this world is as perfect as possible.

[Edit: Oops, I didn't see your post, Manus - you went just a few moments before me. Here's a glib reponse to your question about the validity of eternal punishment: modern, liberal, humane society ALREADY accepts the justice and utility of eternal punishment. What? You don't agree? Then why is it generally accepted that some actions call for life imprisonment without parole? That serial killer who murdered 48 women has been removed from society permanently - not killed, but separated, both because of who he is (evil and anti-social) and what he has done (murder, rape, treachery, etc.). Life imprisonment is the secular model of spiritual hell - a final, irrevocable separation from society caused justly by the criminal's inability to exist productively and benevolently within that society. Hell is the very same idea - some people are so evil that they truly "belong" in Hell, both by their deeds and their nature.]

 

But I don't agree with life imprisonment either Grey Magistrate, and even if I did, I'm very aware that one Life isn't anywhere near eternity -besides, I doubt you would say that any notion of god can be stooped down to our level- just because we do it does not mean it is ok. Humans are petty, emtional, hateful, vindictive, and unforgiving. God is not supposed to be any of these things. A Quote someone else used in another post; If Oxen had gods, they would look like an Ox.

I too would say that this world is as perfect as is possible but right this second, even for these past 500 years maybe, even 5000, but I don't think it is as perfect as is possible - this is tricky however, a lot of people may also say this, but I don't think that they are talking about this world. I am however, and as time means little to me, I can get away with saying such a thing. To be aware of time, then yes, this world is as perfect as it could be.

Heh But this world is free from evil, whatever do you mean? No, I have come to realise what many of you are reffering to as evil is not exactly what I was reffering to, I of course admit the existence of that, I couldn't not do so, but I stand by my stance that TRUE 'Evil' does not exist, or rather, exists only in that it does not, as illusion.

I sincerly would like to hear why a christian would accept the notion of eternal damnation from an all-loving, all-knowing, all-forgiving God, or even god.

 

You touched upon my problem Grey Magistrate but I dont think you answered it really.
The point of my problem wasnt really about the existance of evil, but of of the validity and moral rightousness of gods decision on who to let into heaven, this was illustrated by the example. Either you pull that matress to the spot where your suicidal child is going to land because you can and you love your child no matter how disapointed you may be in him, or you look at your child in disgust and sorrow as he plunges into death without doing nothing. According to Christianity god choose option number two and I just dont think that goes with either all loving or omnipotent. Either god isnt all loving or he isnt omnipotent.

On another point I would also like to point out parental responsibility, true there is free will and every person is responsible for their choices but the parents. genetic set up, and persons upbringing is of great importance in the outcome of what is an individual. I am of the opinion that behind every "villain" there are parents that did something wrong, this doesnt account for everything that "villain" does and he is responsible for his own actions but some blame is and should reside with the parents. Isnt the same thing true with god? We are created in the image of god, what a human are is what god created us to be, how can god then be completely innocent about the things we humans do?

 

@grey magistrate
Whoah, you honestly make my head "spin", since last night I had trouble sleepin' thanks to all these emotions this conversation made me think.

Well, Now I'm, gonna go a bit Naive here, but howcome anyone hasn't mentioned the Dude downstairs, correct me if i'm wrong, but I think Good and Evil live side-by-side, whether we like it or not. Let's view things from Christian point of view, there was/is God, but a coin always have to have a flipside, true? So then there has to be Satan, the Twisted form of evil, the one who holds the banished souls etc. etc.
and IIRC, bible talks about Judgement day, when gates of hell open and everyone is judged, true?

Again I say, correct me if I'm wrong about any of these things i'm saying..

I simply believe sort of like that every religion we have in this planet, is true, every god exist, and we judge ourselfs, but since everyone has their own points of view, so there is no telling from what is evil from one side's of view..

IE. a man kills another man he sees as evil, but the laws and morale of that country see no point in seeing that man was evil he killed, he will be judged by the laws. But the man himself thinks the man he killed was evil, thus not going to hell, or whatever he believed in. But if he was religious, I think he will have a certain amount of time in banishment, until he feels sorry for the murder, and thus is forgiven.

I have this dilemma on what I believe, and it is that someone has to judge us, but with what beliefs? I believe that when I die, I will listen to my own morale and heart, and decide will I die and reincarnate to live life worse than this one, or better. Will I reincarnate as an animal, bug or whatever, I don't know
But that is what I believe, I believe in Mother Nature, and thus living a way of "there is no good without evil, and do to others as you wish to do to them".. sort of modification of Karma laws etc

Henceforth I have broken the first commandment of the 10 commandments: Hold no other gods etc.
Cant help that, but I also believe in God almighty

This is really making me insane thinking all these things.. But I want to live my life as I plea, trying to forgive my own mistakes, and aiding all who need aid, forgiving to people around me doing wrong or evil.. or atleast trying to forgive.

But still the most evil crime my morale knows, is claiming the innocence of a child through a rape etc. It is simply too perverted to accept, dont know why.. The least punishment physically I know and could imagine, would be cutting of his genitals and isolating him from the society for the rest of his life, since I think Capital punishment only eases the criminals pains (if any) by freeing him/her.. He/She would have more pain thinking about it in the dark hours of his isolation considering "Was it right what I did?".
That I consider a worthy punishmed, cruel but working, I guess..

World sucks anyways, I see more evil here than good, but when good things happen, I smile everyday not just good things to myself, but throughout the world

"We're living in the Edge! (You can't help yourself from falling)
We're living on the Edge! (You can't help yourself at all)"

sigh..I'm out

 

Dammit Grandalf, you almost gave me some hope, you made such sense, then you let that vindictiveness creep back in.

Is there no-one who can live free of such folly, let such hateful emotion tear them asunder?

Why do you all hate so?

I am sincere, I truly desire, against my better judgement, to know why people continue to live with such hypocrisy - two wrongs do not make a right. Justice, Karma, Fate even, these things are not Vengence, do not try to equate them with such. I understand Anger, but how can it be sustained for so long? Do you not see the err of your words after they are spoken? You may claim vengence for yourself in fury, but for such an isolated event, so far removed from yourself? You do more harm then is done by those who would harm so, and to yourself, not them, yourself.

 

What sort of hope do you mean?
That the world isn't full of decay, greed and corruption? Perhaps your right, but mostly.. sigh..

I still believe in love (don't know why =) and compassion, empathy and all that. I try to understand cause and effect, try to live my life by the sound inside the very me.
and no, i'm not schizofrenic

there yet maybe hope, but it's very slim odds.
But the deal is, unfortunately that there aint no good without evil and vice versa.
You live, you learn

:Edit:
Dear Mr. Manus.
I think Anger is something we all need to feel to be Inhuman, Vengeance is blind, mostly pure hate etc. That is our own choosing.

I actually never revenged anything seriously.
I'm not that eye for an Eye -type persons.
More like Turn my other cheek to easy you etc.


Naive hippie Signing out

[ November 09, 2003, 17:45: Message edited by: Grandalf the Green Sorcerer ]

 

We've moved the goalposts! First we questioned God's goodness because of the existence of any evil anywhere. Now we're questioning God's goodness because not everyone is saved. So first we questioned God's goodness because He is not perfectly just with everyone; but now we're questioning God's goodness because He is not unjustly merciful with everyone!

Gandalf, you touch on this very contradiction when you speak poetically of love and tolerance and so forth, but then lash out (justly) against child rapists. How do we reconcile justice and mercy? And how can we legitimately decide that our personally-determined balance is superior to God's? Manus calls your comment "vindictive", but I think you've touched on a proper revulsion that we feel in the face of naked, brutal, random, consuming evil.

Manus, you write that two wrongs don't make a right. That's correct, but you're presuming that punishment is a wrong. First you deny evil, and now (quite logically and rationally) you deny justice! You try to separate justice and vengeance - appropriately - but then meld the two by presuming that there are no crimes worthy of eternal punishment (either in this life, via life imprisonment, or the next, via hell). Life imprisonment is not necessarily unjust. In your zeal to strip hatred from justice, you have come to hate real justice.

You can rationally argue that there is no evil and no justice (you can use the word, but you gut its historic meaning if you exclude serious punishment). But those premises have NO connection to the reality we live in, and they do not deal with the very real problem of very real evil.

We cannot truly understand Christian mercy unless we understand how truly horrible evil is, and how very necessary it is to deal with that evil justly.

joacquin, try reading the parable of the prodigal son in Luke 15, and answer if the Christian God sounds like a God that doesn't care about His children.

 

@Grey
whoa.. you actually made me sound like a monster..

Ok, now I've straightened up my feelings towards god and they go like this:
I think since god gave us free will and
rights to chose our own paths, he turned into a viewing person, I mean like that It's observing us all the time, but not interrupting us anyways during our lives, some people find god as strenght, some as weakness.

God has nothing to do with the evil in the world, it is caused by us, our primitive senses.
All the wars and massacres base on human OPINIONS, henceforth I think God is shaking its head there somewhere looking at us.

The reason I typed the text I typed before was because I was shocked, I think that I doesn't require you to be a Christian etc. to go to paradise.. I think its based on our own beliefs.

Im still shocked of the way bible says about somethings, and my heart just disagrees with it, saying it cant be the true word of the god..
I just wont accept it
We have the freedom to choose, freedom to do what we want, evil or good.
Humans have flaws, there is no perfect humanbeing.
Everyone sins sometimes.
Though like my father once said, if we'd live by the rules, the world could be a bit better.
But for human nature, it's impossible.
It's inhuman to feel greed, lust and so forth..
Disagree on that?

But I still wonder, who is to give mercy/justice, since we all are kind of beasts with primitive basics sometimes.. Like the feeling people get when in example they get if a man is sentenced to death on horrible crimes.. But the feeling of revenge will be hollow after it's been executed.

Vengeance leaves you nothing, I say.
But sometimes we all revenge something.

I just think and believe that there is no perfect world, atleast not without some form of evil.
It's mine opinion..

 

First I have to say I'm sorry I didn't read all comments on this thread, but my aswer is short and easy:

A loving God and evil can't co-exist. What else do you think Jesus had died for?