1. SPS Accounts:
    Do you find yourself coming back time after time? Do you appreciate the ongoing hard work to keep this community focused and successful in its mission? Please consider supporting us by upgrading to an SPS Account. Besides the warm and fuzzy feeling that comes from supporting a good cause, you'll also get a significant number of ever-expanding perks and benefits on the site and the forums. Click here to find out more.
    Dismiss Notice
Dismiss Notice
You are currently viewing Boards o' Magick as a guest, but you can register an account here. Registration is fast, easy and free. Once registered you will have access to search the forums, create and respond to threads, PM other members, upload screenshots and access many other features unavailable to guests.

BoM cultivates a friendly and welcoming atmosphere. We have been aiming for quality over quantity with our forums from their inception, and believe that this distinction is truly tangible and valued by our members. We'd love to have you join us today!

(If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us. If you've forgotten your username or password, click here.)

Has violent game regulation gone too far?

Discussion in 'Alley of Dangerous Angles' started by Ofelix, May 30, 2007.

  1. Dinsdale Gems: 13/31
    Latest gem: Ziose


    Veteran

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2006
    Messages:
    583
    Media:
    1
    Likes Received:
    8
    Exactly. Kind of like the absurd light bulb bill here in California. Grab ahold of some phony "crisis" and then pass some legislation.

    No kidding. It's only a matter of time.

    How many times to these morons have to try legislating morality before they see that it just doesn't work.
     
  2. Abomination Gems: 26/31
    Latest gem: Diamond


    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2003
    Messages:
    2,375
    Likes Received:
    0
    Who the what now? Explain! I don't live in The Land of The Free so I have no idea what you're on about here. Does sound worth a giggle from the get-go, though.
     
  3. Register Gems: 29/31
    Latest gem: Glittering Beljuril


    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2001
    Messages:
    3,146
    Likes Received:
    1
    Gender:
    Male
    NYS is becoming the Germany of the US with their stupid legislation, and as a result the citizens will just go over the border to buy the games of their choice. Dumb for the gamers, dumb for the stores, dumb for liberty, dumb for everyone.
     
  4. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2000
    Messages:
    10,342
    Media:
    40
    Likes Received:
    219
    Gender:
    Male
    The "absurd" lightbulb bill is to in the near future (I forget the dates proposed, but it's several years from now) end the use of incandescent lighting.

    IMO, it's not exactly absurd because it's goal is to make California more energy efficient in a pretty painless way.

    IMO, it would be better to mandate certain energy efficiencies rather than ban the sale of certain technologies, and let incandescents in if they can meet those standards.
     
  5. jaded empath Gems: 20/31
    Latest gem: Garnet


    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2005
    Messages:
    1,284
    Likes Received:
    9
    Firstly, the bill was introduced this January to ban sale (not use) of ILBs in California by 2012.

    Strangely, Ontario followed suit with a nearly identical bill in April - same deadline...copycats. ;)

    But this sounds like an attempt to get people to wake up and break from the rut they're in - those compact fluorescent lamps that retrofit in a 120V socket are better in just about every way:

    - Given a nearly comparable price/lifetime ratio (for my area $.50can/1000h for a 60W incandescent and $3.50/8000h for a 13W 'CFL' of similar light output) the fluorescent uses less than 1/4 of the energy of the incandescent.

    - fluorescents give off MUCH less heat (which might be a problem if you try retrofitting little Susie's E-Z Bake oven, but would be a BIG selling point in California - less heat you've got to run air-conditioning to counteract :D )

    - and c'mon, EIGHT TIMES the useful life! Who wouldn't jump at the chance to cut back on those occasions of minor annoyance of *changing*bulbs*? That's what hits ME as the best part.

    ...and yet, I look around and see only three fluorescent bulbs in my apartment (one is a 'tube' style fixture over the kitchenette, the other two are in standard light fixtures in hard-to-reach places) while there are ten old-fashioned filament 60W'ers, as well as three 40W 'candle lights' on a dimmer (dunno if I could get CFLs to fit those sockets/dimmer) and a reading lamp over the bed that's something like 20W (again, small socket)

    Yes, even someone like ME who's extolling the virtues of the compact fluorescent lightbulb, hasn't really converted over to them. (Gotta remember to get some next shopping trip and keep 'em on hand to swap out when the oldies burn out)

    So basically, what I tried to say above, is that people behave like sheep and will continue to do what they already do unless physically prevented. :(

    Maybe that's what 'Light Bulb Bill' legislators have in mind by doing this - people continue to keep doing the same stupid things, even when you offer them better alternatives, so maybe you've got to FORCE them to change?


    ANYWAY, back onto the topic - w.r.t. gamers getting older, I'm a peer of Aldeth in that respect; I cut my teeth on Pong and the 2600; I've been gaming...whoa, for more than twenty years. :bad: The biggest crime I've been charged with is "attempting to move a vehicle when unsafe to do so" (pulling out when a car was coming over the hill, and I was hawkishly looking for traffic in the other direction :( ) I do play violent games, but essentially I fire up GTA3 or the like so that I can vent my stress and aggression in-game and NOT IN REAL LIFE.

    Ironically, it seems the legislators in this case are falling prey to the very same human fault I mentioned above - going back to the same tried-and-true habit of demagoguery without actually thinking about what they're doing... :rolleyes:

    Oh, and BTW - everyone seems to think that the 'Parental Control' bit will be refused by the console makers...read the LAST LINE in the quote from the OP... :p
     
  6. Montresor

    Montresor Mostly Harmless Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2005
    Messages:
    3,103
    Media:
    127
    Likes Received:
    183
    Gender:
    Male
    Both the lightbulbs and the violent video games come under what David Bergland calls "The PANG Fallacy" (PANG = People Are No Good). People in general don't know how to behave, so government needs to regulate their behavior. Without legislation, children will buy violent video games, adults will buy energy-inefficient lightbulbs, etc. because we can't be trusted to make important (or unimportant) decisions without the "expert" advice :nolike: of politicians.

    And it is generally forgotten (or at least ignored) that government is made up of people, and if people are no good, you can't trust a government made up of people.

    We should ask if we the people are grown-ups capable of living our own lives, or whether we are children on an allowance that need to be controlled by "parent figures" for what they deem to be our own good. And we should also ask if the sales of lightbulbs and video games are serious enough "problems" that they should be turned into a matter of fines and prison terms and appear permanently on the criminal records of the "offenders".

    If a child in New York wants a copy of Unreal Tournament, how will they keep that child from going to Newark and buy it?? It's not as if the customs service between the states of New Jersey and New York is airtight! :rolleyes:
     
  7. Dinsdale Gems: 13/31
    Latest gem: Ziose


    Veteran

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2006
    Messages:
    583
    Media:
    1
    Likes Received:
    8
    I agree, Montresor.
     
  8. The Great Snook Gems: 31/31
    Latest gem: Rogue Stone


    Adored Veteran

    Joined:
    May 15, 2003
    Messages:
    4,110
    Media:
    28
    Likes Received:
    309
    Gender:
    Male
    @Montresor

    It is posts like that, that make me wish we could "rec" posts here in the BOM. Well said.
     
  9. AMaster Gems: 26/31
    Latest gem: Diamond


    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2000
    Messages:
    2,495
    Media:
    1
    Likes Received:
    50
    Except that many people don't know how to behave. Seat belts illustrate this point quite clearly.

    Cell phone use while driving also comes to mind.

    Hell, let's think back to the good old days of the industrial revolution. Without regulation, we know people will work in unsafe environments that regularly kill or maim, will work insane hours for minimal compensation, will have their children work, etc. We know this because they've done it.

    We know people will endanger their safety for no apparent reason, because they do it.

    There are many more examples of such things. I suppose we could shrug our shoulders, but I don't think indifference toward preventable death and suffering is a laudable trait.
     
  10. Nakia

    Nakia The night is mine Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2003
    Messages:
    5,575
    Media:
    102
    Likes Received:
    135
    Gender:
    Female
    Both AMaster and Montresor have valid points.

    However, in regards to the Industrial Revolution people worked long hours, with unsafe condition and low pay primarily because they had no choice and were used to working that way. Blame the guys in charge not the workers. That is why Unions were started.

    I don't think games, movies, books containing adult material should be sold to children. I do think people are getting a bit carried away with this "video games turn people into criminals" idea.

    However, I am a natural born rebel. I hate being told what to do. I do not want to be molly coddled, wrapped in cotton and protected from life. Gee, I guess I shouldn't have been allowed to ride horses or climb trees when I was a child. Those are dangerous activities. Sports, aha, easy to get injured playing sports.

    Seat Belts are a particular item used in a high powered vehicle which if it hits something can kill you.
     
  11. AMaster Gems: 26/31
    Latest gem: Diamond


    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2000
    Messages:
    2,495
    Media:
    1
    Likes Received:
    50
    That's part of the point. If people are 'left alone to get along', who benefits? The powerful.

    The difference between having government dictate things like seatbelt wearing and incandescent bulbs and having the market dictate such things is that government is, at least in theory, accountable to the weak. The market is not.

    The whole point of the government, from an extreme liberal perspective (in the classic sense) is to deal with externalities resulting from transactions which would not otherwise be dealt with. That is, to uphold the public good.

    Illegalizing asbestos, or incandescent bulbs, or mandating seatbelts, or whatever, is simply the government serving its role.

    Sure, it could go too far.
     
  12. T2Bruno

    T2Bruno The only source of knowledge is experience Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2004
    Messages:
    9,740
    Media:
    15
    Likes Received:
    436
    Gender:
    Male
    Various entertainment media should be regulated in some form, movies have ratings, TV shows have ratings, videos have ratings, reading materials have ratings. There are stiff fines and other penalties for the proprietor of such entertainment to sell/admit individuals below the appropriate age (which, by the way, are regulated by each of the listed industries).

    In all the above cases, a parent can override the rating and get it for their child -- and some irresponsible parents do just that. But the business in question cannot decide which children to make exceptions for (given the people I've seen behind the counters at movie theatres and game stores this is a good thing).

    The big problem is that the gaming industry is not policing itself. So lawmakers believe they are being forced to lower the boom themselves. And until the gaming industry steps up and actually forces stores to abide by the standards we are going to continue having knee jerk reactions from politicians.

    The easiest way to police the industry is to find out which stores are selling to inappropriate ages. The major stores (Walmart, Target, etc.) are easy, just identify the employee violating the rules and have that employee fired. The smaller stores are straight forward but painful to the gaming industry -- put a freeze on their purchases for a period of time (people can't buy the latest and greatest game from them).

    As far as violent games leading to violence... get over it, this a real phenomon. It certainly doesn't happen to everyone (so such disclaimers as proof are useless) but everyone knows SOMEONE who has taken a game just a little too far -- perhaps even a lot too far. The issue is the same for violent shows (such as RAW), but it occurs. In every case these people have serious issues which the games certainly did not cause, but quite possibly acted as a trigger. Everytime some nutcase goes off and an FPS or other violent game is found enshrined in the psycho's bedroom, we will get legislation trying to tighten the restrictions... that is, until the gaming industry cleans up it's own act.
     
  13. Nataraja Gems: 12/31
    Latest gem: Moonstone


    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2006
    Messages:
    466
    Media:
    20
    Likes Received:
    14
    Gender:
    Male
    Probably shouldnt say this, but I have a game thats banned in New Zealand, and I play it quite a lot, and its incredibly violent, and its crude and tasteless and you can urinate on pretty much anything...

    But...there is no way that Id ever behave the way I do in this game in real life, I can tell the difference between fact and fiction, and despite the crude and tasteless humour in this particular game, I see past it for the point its making...like taking the piss out of Lieberman.

    It was easy for me to get this banned game, I got it from a friend who had downloaded it. Playing the game doesnt make me any less of a responsible adult, in fact, I think that by playing it and remaining a responsible and rational adult I am proving the regulators wrong. Simulated violence doesnt lead to real violence, personal issues that are internal to the person in question lead to real violence. People who play violent games and then go an do something violent in real life have issues inside them, its nothing to do with the entertainment you find appealing. Like I wouldnt go drive a real car the way I would in a driving game, theres a clear boundry between acceptable in real life and acceptable in simulation.
     
  14. Nakia

    Nakia The night is mine Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2003
    Messages:
    5,575
    Media:
    102
    Likes Received:
    135
    Gender:
    Female
    Hokay, Grandma is going to make some grandmotherly noises here.

    Back in the dark ages when I was a teen there was a big stink in newspapers, magazines, books (all those things printed on paper) about how teenagers were going to hades and fast. Marijuana was coming into vogue, teenagers were joining gangs, we were disrespectful. I don't remember what was blamed for this terrible decline in morality but the 'authorities insisted it was fact'. Nothing new in this the older generation has a tendency to see the younger generation in this negative way. For some reason adults simply don't understand that it is natural for teenagers to be rebellious.

    TV was just beginning to become popular. We didn't have a TV (black & white) until I was 18. Korea was a war, oops police action, we read about or heard about on the radio. Violence was mostly something that was over there someplace for most of us.

    I think there is a big difference between then and now; communications. We see things live. Vietnam was a live war. A few brave souls actually filmed the war as it happened. I saw the planes fly into the World Trade Center live at the moment it was happening. Violence has come right into our peaceful homes.

    Fictional TV? Ha, lots of violence there. "Leave it to Beaver" and "Father Knows Best" are things we smile about or even laugh at. I do think this has an affect on people and if someone is inclined towards violence it probably encourages it.

    What can we do about it? I don't have the answer. We could do away with all the technology of the last 50 years but personally I am NOT giving up my computer with Internet connection. I'll eat beans first.

    I agree Game Publishers have to take responsibility but what about the Internet? We are an International Community. Who makes the rules? Who enforces them? Maybe it is time for each individual to grow up and start taking responsibility. Stop assuming that Joe Whosis or Grace Whitchit will take of everything. Let there be caring in the world and let it begin with me. Especially in the Countries that are primarily industrial and technological.

    [ June 05, 2007, 07:52: Message edited by: Nakia ]
     
  15. Dragon3 Gems: 6/31
    Latest gem: Jasper


    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2007
    Messages:
    196
    Likes Received:
    1
    i've always thought this noise about video game violence is ridiculous.i grew up in los angeles.i can take you to places........no,scratch that.i'll send you there.i'm not going.........where,if you live to come back,you'll know what violence really is.what good does it do to protect little johnnie from the violence in a video game when he goes to school and finds billy in his math class died of a drug overdoes,tommie in his english class was killed in a gang fight,then he goes to his locker and gets shot in the crossfire because a crack deal went bad in the science hall.i have a better idea for these damn poloticians.trust parents to teach their children to seperate fantasy from reality while they go to work keeping gangs,drugs,and guns out of our schools
     
  16. Montresor

    Montresor Mostly Harmless Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2005
    Messages:
    3,103
    Media:
    127
    Likes Received:
    183
    Gender:
    Male
    Government is not an entity, it is a collection of people. The same people who are too stupid to wear seatbelts, too weak to protect themselves, too dangerous to be trusted with guns, and too irresponsible to spend their own money on whatever is considered the "right" products (be it lightbulbs or video games).

    "Accountable to the weak" is not exactly an expression I connect with any politicians, anywhere in the world. Politicians are not elected for their wisdom or intelligence, but for their charisma. I don't consider the likes of Hillary Clinton or George W. Bush a special breed of people who are neither weak, stupid, dangerous or incorruptible. They are just people, and no more or less able to run your life for you than anyone else - except yourself.

    Prohibition didn't work in America, it just transferred the alcohol market to criminals like Al Capone and flooded the market with illegal and often dangerous "moonshine". Drug Prohibition ("The War on Drugs") hasn't ended drug use or even reduced it, it has only transferred the drug market to organized criminals and created new problems like gang warfare and criminals selling drugs in or around schools. A Video game prohibition or a War on Lightbulbs will not work much better, and both will create spinoff problems we can't even foresee.

    If people make dumb decisions - for example buying inefficient lightbulbs or violent video games, or using drugs - then let those people bear the cost themselves. The alternative is to let politicians transfer the cost of moralising legislation to you.
     
  17. Aikanaro Gems: 31/31
    Latest gem: Rogue Stone


    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2001
    Messages:
    5,521
    Likes Received:
    20
    These sorts of restrictions are utterly worthless in the age of high speed internet anyway. If you can't buy it over the counter, you can download it and it's no big deal. Why even bother making a law that's impossible to enforce?

    Government censorship is ineffective due to the internet. They can make all the irrelevant laws they like, it's not going to change anything.
     
  18. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

    Joined:
    May 15, 2003
    Messages:
    12,434
    Media:
    46
    Likes Received:
    249
    Gender:
    Male
    Even if it wasn't available for download, the law would still be ineffective and unenforcable. If, for example, you live in NYC, and this law comes into effect, you take a drive across the river and buy it in New Jersey instead.
     
  19. Ragusa

    Ragusa Eternal Halfling Paladin Veteran

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2000
    Messages:
    10,140
    Media:
    63
    Likes Received:
    250
    Gender:
    Male
    :eek: I don't know why I didn't get that earlier, but how does one violently regulate games? :eek: Now that sounds scary.
     
  20. AMaster Gems: 26/31
    Latest gem: Diamond


    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2000
    Messages:
    2,495
    Media:
    1
    Likes Received:
    50
    This reasoning ignores the historical record, and for good cause; the historical record destroys it. See, as I've mentioned in this thread already, the abuses that came with the Industrial Revolution, and the reason those abuses stopped.

    I can only conclude you missed the bit about 'upholding the public good', since you ignore it in its entirety.

    Buying inefficient bulbs has costs borne by society as a whole, not just ye olde consumer.

    Not wearing seatbelts results in more injuries, which cost society more money to treat (though I suppose you're for 'letting' people pay for their own healthcare, and if they can't...well, no care. Correct me if I am mistaken). For that matter, it also results in more explosives being added to airbags, which make airbags more dangerous.

    Doing drugs...well, I'm on your side there.

    Are politicians more or less accountable to the general public than businessmen?

    Yes, that's a rhetorical question.

    Note that I'm not arguing for game regulation. Yet, at any rate.

    I'm curious. Are you in favor of regulatory agencies like the EPA and regulations such as the Clean Air Act?
     
Sorcerer's Place is a project run entirely by fans and for fans. Maintaining Sorcerer's Place and a stable environment for all our hosted sites requires a substantial amount of our time and funds on a regular basis, so please consider supporting us to keep the site up & running smoothly. Thank you!

Sorcerers.net is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to products on amazon.com, amazon.ca and amazon.co.uk. Amazon and the Amazon logo are trademarks of Amazon.com, Inc. or its affiliates.