Hamas Elected In Palestinian Elections

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Actually, the Palestinians in Palestine suffer far more than the refugees do. Check here for some interesting information.....

Incedentally, I thought we were talking about Israel and Palestine, not Israel and the entire Arab world.......

[ February 09, 2006, 10:35: Message edited by: Drew ]

 

I'm not minimizing the suffering of Palestinians here. And yet, I can't help but think that with better leadership (yes, from both sides), much of this suffering would not occur. Yes, the Palestinians are responsible for some (or much) of their own suffering.

Another thing to look at: yes, Israeli Arabs are very often treated as second class citizens in Israel (actually, many Mizrahi Jews would say the same)... but they do have on average a much higher quality of life than others in the region...

Sure, it's *much* simpler when we look at things out of context, no?

 

I'm probably going to regret asking this, but... Drew, given that there was going to be a Jewish homeland *somewhere*, where do you suggest it have been placed?

 

Germany?

Given recent history, that'd probably have been the most equitable place to put it.

Of course, the time to hash that out was back in the '40s.

 

And, in news just to hand (well, here in Australia, at least)...

Putin invites Hamas leaders to Moscow

A few months back, such a thing would have been unthinkable. Still, leaving aside the fact that it's a chance to stick it to the US, it seems Putin is willing to talk rather than bluster and threaten. That kind of posturing which will only increase support for Hamas and similar bodies.

One can only hope that his Foreign Ministry is being honest about why - and if it is, then good luck to them. The last thing anybody in that region needs is more bloodshed.

 

@Rallymama: I think taking the land away from the people that injured the Jews in the first place would have been suitable. Punishing Palestine for what Germany did to the Jews doesn't make any sense.

@dmc: Don't forget that Palestinians are completely uneducated (and there is no way of changing this without bringing Palestine out of the stone age), suffer from malnutrition, and watch their children die every day of preventable diseases or at the hands of Israeli soldiers. 22% of Palestinians killed in Israeli retaliations were children. Whether accidental or not, it's pretty hard to stay objective when your son was just shot in the head for playing too close to a check point. When a family member cracks and launches a suicide attack, Israel commonly bulldozes the family home into the ground. I linked to an article that discusses that earlier in the thread. Regardless of what one thinks of Israel's tactics, it is hard to blame the Palestinian people at large. They are so desperate that they will follow anyone who says he can improve their situation. Terrorism stems from desperation, and life in Palestine is about as desperate as it comes. Perception is the problem here. Israelis are afraid of more terror attacks. Palestinians are afraid of starving to death. Until they no longer fear being denied life's necessities, Palestinians will continue to resort to terrorism out of desperation, so Israel (and the world at large) is going to have to help Palestine if we want to see the attacks stop. Terrorism can only be eradicated when its root cause is adressed.

Culpability does not lie with uneducated Palestinians that struggle to find food, and whose children die of preventable diseases. Palestinian culpability lies with the leadership that manipulates them or, more globally, with the desperation of Palestinian daily life.

[ February 10, 2006, 03:35: Message edited by: Drew ]

 

Below are 2 possible reasons for the large amount of support for Hamas.

1 - Many people view them as the 'protectors of the people'. Every time an Israeli soldier kills a civilian (by accident or on purpose), this will strengthen this view.

2 - Intimidation. Just like N.Ireland, there is incredible pressure to vote (and support) for extremists and social alienation is the least of your problems.

Before you dismiss my views, take into consideration that I live in a country that has problems with terrorism, so I know what I am talking about.

Yes it happened here! Okay there is still terrorism, but at least people can go shopping in Belfast without worrying about shopping malls and schools being blown up.

@DMC I can completely understand why you would would not see eye-to-eye with Palestanians after the way they acted over 9/11, and I am sure that you were also hurt by what you witnessed. But take into consideration that some Americans still support terrorists in Ireland (including celebrating the Enniskillen bombing during the 80's which killed women and children), but rather than getting angry, I just put this down to ignorance of the situation here.

An old Irish saying Ni heolas go haontios which means There is no knowledge without unity rings very true here.

[ February 10, 2006, 11:48: Message edited by: Cúchulainn ]

 

If I was the islamic community in general, and in case of this topic the palestinians, I would temper my behaviour. After so many bombings they have not gotten any real steps closer to what they want.

So try somthing that will work! Talk to others and keep the promises made. Accept that Allah does not rule the hearts of all man, and never will. Stop blaming over and over and forgive.

Moslims over the world claim, after incidents, that the islam is peacefull. Well I have not noticed it.

 

The only individuals who can control the mob carries the bullhorn. The "community" cannot change its course. Only their leadership can do that (and often not even then, as mobs often grow beyond their leader's capacity to control them). Also, keep in mind that these bombings are done out of desperation. It is the only recourse that they feel is left to them.

Islam is no more or less peaceful than christianity. When Christianity was Islam's age they were burning "witches" and exterminating Jews, Muslims, and anyone else that refused to convert. In truth, the troubles we face now stem more from society than religioun. Most of the Arab Nations' governments are less than 100 years old, having only recently been freed from the nations that colonised them. Much of their behaviour is little more than their despotic dictators (that the Western world put in power in the first place) flexing their muscles.

Countries like Malaysia, Indonesia, and Pakistan had a propensity for certain types of violence before they ever adopted Islam. Honor killings, for example, do not actually come from Islam. This has been part of Pakistani culture since before Islam even existed. People often believe that the tradition of burying the first-born child alive if it is female comes from Islam, but this, never existed in Islam, either. It was a Beduouin tradition that Islam actually expressly forbids, though this has not completely stopped the practice.

When looking at Christianity, one need only look to the great level of superstition, as well as the melding of Pagan and Christian beliefs found so prevalently in South American Catholicism. Rome isn't exactly happy about this, but they have resigned themselves to tolerating this digression from normal Catholic doctrine. Irish Catholics brought the Druidic cross with them when they adopted Catholicism. Today, most Christians aren't even aware that it is actually a Pagan symbol. All of these examples point to instances in which culture imposed its own belifs and valuse onto religion.

Assuming religion to be the dominant force behind the actions of a society is often a bad idea. Matters are rarely so simple. Religion certainly plays a role, but at times nationality and cultural identity can play an even bigger one.

 

My point proven. So they know and can do someting about it. We have history to make it clear what works and what not.

And so I say again: Muslims, I do not hate you but I see you to much in the news. Real results happen at the negotiations table. So show us your peacefull ways and welcome to the world community.

One day something will happen, if you stay at this course, that will undo so much. What if one terrorist does it whit a nuke? How do we react then?

But to much doomsdaying. congratulations HAMAS, you earned it. Stay true, but keep the door on a crack. When oppurtunity knocks, you answer the door.

 

Umm......did you actually read my post or just skim it? I quite clearly disagreed with you. I stressed that the Palestinians do what they do out of nothing short of shear desperation and the struggle to survive. When your family is starving to death, it's a bit tough to just do nothing. They act out of desperation. Israelis fear more terrorist attacks. Palestinians fear death from starvation and disease. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand why they resort to terrorism in such a circumstance. (Please note that I am not condoning terrorism.....just pointing out that if there were a checklist of items that trigger terrorism, Palestine would have every single box checked in.) I also went into great detail about how this is a cultural issue, not a religious one, yet you still adress "Palestinians" as "Muslims".

 

@dmc: It doesn't. On the other hand, if blowing yourself up on a bus causes Israel to stop resettling the west bank, than many would consider that a success. (Before someone decides to start arguing that this won't happen as the result of a terrorist attack......duh! But we aren't talking about reality. We're talking about perspective.) I'm sure you've been desperate before in your life. You tell me......how often do the actions of a desperate man make sense? In my experience, it isn't often. These people can't simply continue to struggle and not get anywhere, seeing their children starve and eventually die of malnutrition, bad water, preventable disease, or maybe a stray bullet. When you are that desperate, anything is better than nothing.

As long as Israel has existed, the Palestinians have seen them as occupiers. (The land was, after all, theirs before it was given to Israel.) Now, with Israeli checkpoints between every Palestinian town (even between one Palestinian town and another....not just between Palestine and Israel) Palestinians also see them as oppressors. The only way the terrorism will stop is if there is a shift in the mindset of Palestinians. They have to stop seeing Israel as an oppressor and start seeing them as an ally. This won't happen overnight, and it won't happen without Israel's help. Like it or not, if Israel wants the terror attacks to stop, they will have to stop acting like an enemy and start acting like an ally. If Israel never starts acting like an ally, then the cycle of violence won't end until they do, or all the Palestinians or Israelis are dead.

[ February 13, 2006, 01:51: Message edited by: Drew ]