Hamas Elected In Palestinian Elections

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Hamas has used children in the past to go on suicide missions as well, not ALL children are as innocent as you like to believe. The Israeli's simply can't be careful enough, and defend themselves by all means necessary. They shoot first and ask questions later, which is the only language their foes speak to begin with.

 

Since this is the "only language their foes speak" that gives Israel the right to shoot anyone they want without first determining if the child is a foe to begin with? From the perspective of the Palestinians that would constitute terrorism and only helps to continue the cycle of violence. When a Palastinian commits a suicide bombing, Israel goes after the bomber's family. That's OK?

 

How many Israeli children died in the bombings in restaurants and busstops ? How many died because of missile attacks from Gaza and Lebanon ?

Or are you only interested in Palestinian casualties ?

 

Ah. My mistake. As a matter of curiosity, what age range does "children" cover in these statistics? If that information's available in the link, I overlooked it.

 

Not in the link I've provided. If you want I'll post the (dated) material I have tracked down, but I would prefer to go in to the university tomorrow and run a Nexus search for more current info. I'm home sick, today, or I would already have done it.

Actually, I'm appreciative that you called me on my post. There is no need to concede an error. The oversight I had in there was actually quite glaring and needed to be corrected. The fault, obviously, was mine.

 

If you made an error, and so did I, we both need to concede that. Errors are not mutually exclusve

 

Yes i can.
And if you want the whole piece i blame Israel and its secular ways that demanded people who lived in the regions for years and survided Crusades, wars and all that nice stuff life presented to them, to move out in one day, forget their homes, forget that they are free and being treated from the beginning as animals.
And the two intifantas were started by the aggressive moves of Israel.
I don't think that there is a side innocent in this case. Somenone started it, the other continued it and it goes like this for ages.
After all you know which the real problem is?
Both Israelis and Palestinians politicians are just fighting for who will get the power nothing else.
Both sides want the big part of the pie and that is the whole problem.
Both are terrorists, if you ask me, since both have done attrocities, and continue to do them.
Noone is justified.

 

Well, i mostly agree with all you said, but a lot of people only seem to put the blame on the Israeli's, probably because the Palestinians don't have a regular army to throw into battle and it basically looks like it's a battle of an army against innocent civilians, and that is absolutely not the case.

 

The reason the blame is put on the Israelis is that they started it. There are certainly no innocent parties now, but the fact still remains that Israel started it and that is why they blame Israel.

 

That's a grave lie and you know it. I know exactly who started it and when, but i'd like to see you post some proof and historical facts before i say anything further on this. Go ahead, surprise me with any proof you can find that israel is in fact the party that shed the first blood.

 

Actually, I think dmc is correct. Europe actually "started it" by taking land that rightfully belonged to Palestine and giving it to Israel. That has always been my viewpoint, but I would argue that taking someone elses sovreignity as your first official act would constitute "starting it". By that logic, Israel started the hostilities by kicking out the Palestinians and taking away their right to self-govern when they moved in. In truth, whether Israel or Europe started it is an issue of semantics.

@Pac Man: Blood needn't be shed to start a conflict. Telling a group of people that have lived somewhere for 1,000 or more years that they have to leave is sufficient.

 

Ah yes...so you have no proof of what your claiming, yet you still put the blame on Israel, how covenient. And you have the nerve to accuse me of racism ? Hah...

Well, that's it for me, i'm out of this conversation, otherwise it'll turn into a "did not, did too" game with my good friend Drew here. I think i'll just go and talk with my parrot instead, at least he makes sense when he speaks.

 

The Germans and the French exchanged some lands after a popular vote of the inhabitants. Certainly after the 2. world war and surprisingly even before. Peacefully. Most definitely Saarland.

 

@Pac Man: Are you denying that Israel took away Palestinian sovreignity or that they forced most of the Palestinians who were living there at the time to leave? Being that both of these these facts are common knowledge, no proof is needed from me.

@dmc: I also blame both sides, because they both refuse to bury the hatchet and step up to the bargaining table. Nevertheless, by simply existing at all (and also forcing the modern day equivalent of the trail of tears upon the prior residents) I contend that Israel "started it". Culpability is, however, shared by both sides for keeping the conflict going.

[ February 09, 2006, 02:40: Message edited by: Drew ]

 

The problem with blaming Palestine to the exclusion of(or simply to a greater degree than)Israel is that the terrorists just aren't as organised as everyone seems to think they are. Several times terror attacks have happened in the wake of very promising agreements between Israel and the Palestinian Authority. Arafat was not as "in control" as people seemed to credit him. Palestine had (and still has) almost no infrastructure and no real way to stop "lone wolves" or rogue terror cells from launching attacks. There will always be some Palestinians (and Israeli's, for that matter) who will do everything in their power to derail attempts at peace. Israel needs to realise this, because terror attacks will not stop overnight. If a treaty were signed and then a terror attack promptly launched Israel still needs to honor the treaty. That way Israel and Palestine can stamp out the rogue elements together.

 

It's funny how common knowledge to one person is a disputed fact to others.

This is taken from Wikipedia. Please note the big red hand saying that neutrality of the article is disputed. I personally trust this paragraph.

I think this is a much better picture of what happened. Sure there were Israelis who were more than happy to show the Palestinians the way out, but there were plenty of Palestinians who also left for they were convinced once their "arab" brothers slaughtered the Jews they could go back and take whatever they wanted.

 

OK. So sometimes they were expelled, like in Lydda and Ramle......and some times the Palestinians left willingly. I fail to see how this really makes a difference. The fact that Israel has expelled Palestinians from at least two cities kind of tips the argument over in Palestine's direction. No Palestinians should have been expelled. Why the Palestinians who left willingly left is a matter of conjecture. Considering that Israeli Palestinians are treated as second class citizens in their own home would indicate that those who left made the right choice.

 

OK. So sometimes they were expelled, like in Yemen and Egypt......and some times the Jews left willingly. I fail to see how this really makes a difference. The fact that Arab states (and Iran) have expelled Jews from more than two countries kind of tips the argument over in Jews' direction. No Jews should have been expelled. Why the Jews who left willingly left is a matter of conjecture. Considering that Mizrahi Jews were treated as second class citizens in their own home would indicate that those who left made the right choice.

So, two can play that game... a quick stat: almost half of Israel's current Jewish population today has their roots in Arab countries, while displaced Palestinians make up less than 2 percent of the population of Arab States. Not to minimize the suffering of the displaced Palestinians, who have certainly suffered and continue to suffer, but history isn't always so neat...