Goodbye

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I don't see the fuzz. We can't all agree and we can't convince everyone in the world. If there is a toppic irrelevant or too simpleminded for someone, then just skip it. Their loss.. Stop leaving. Crips

 

a) Laches, what I told you?

b) That's what I do -even if of different reason

No shame in "coming back."

 

Neriana -- Give me a break. Your entire post consisted of "we" this and "we" that...Americans can't do this and Americans can't do that. For god's sake, we are all individuals here. If you find the AoDA offensive, stay out of the forum. If you feel like you're being attacked, it's your CHOICE whether to respond or not.

You must be joking and...speak for yourself, please. All forums here are subject to rules. By posting on them, we agree to follow them. When someone doesn't, I see it as a duty, nothing more/nothing less, to let the mods know. I don't see it as tattling (that word has such infantile connotations), but as trying to keep some measure of civility in a place that we all like to be. AoDA was purposively created to provoke thought and exchange ideas. At times it does get edgy and tempers may flare in defense of close-held opinions. But there's a saying for all those who don't care for that type of conversation -- "If you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen." Pure and simple.

I didn't know Americans corner the market on "name-calling" Any time individuals engage in a debate, the risk is run of personalizing it. People can get emotional, point fingers and dig a little deeper then they originally intended. The solution is to get a thicker skin. But to stop debating? -- NEVER!

You make it sound like all Americans feel persecuted....like we're attacked everywhere we go. Sorry, but I don't feel that way. There was a time when I got irritated with some of the political postings in AoDA, but I came to the realization that a differing opinion, while diametrically opposed to mine but still rooted in fact, isn't a bad thing.....that maybe I could learn something from it. And I did. Does it get tiring defending a position over time?....sure it does. That's when you take a break and enjoy the other forums more. (But then again, "we" always come back -- maybe it's the "American" conquering bloodlust mentality at work!!!)

 

On the subject of "tattling"...

Neriana is right. Tattling - aka running to mommie - is considered a form of cowardice and, therefore NOT respected.

Americans do not respect cowards - it is considered the worst of personality flaws. Most of "our" disrespect for foreign governments is based on this aspect. In particular: Germany, France, and - now - Spain, unfortunately.

 

As an American I have made it my personal policy to be equally offensive and insulting to everyone.

I have found, like Laches, that the AoDA is not always the best place to exchange ideas...it often is the location for an individual to trumpet their own ideas...and wait for affirmation from those who agree. Not much give and take.

Oh well, when I get fed up with closed minds...I just don't go there for a while and don't read the threads.

Except for Chandos...I read everything he posts .

 

LMAO! -- Cowardice?? What's your solution? -- Blasting through the door with insults that top your opponents?? The "tattling" is first of all, following the rules, and, second of all, trying to make the forum enjoyable for all. You confuse cowardice with responsibility -- If the moderators miss an inflamatory post because of their busy schedules and you happen to see it, I believe it's our responsibility as posters to let the mods know as soon as possible, otherwise retaliations can occur and feelings can get hurt unnecessarily. If that's ratting....so be it. It's hopefully all for the better. (Funny, I've never thought of myself as a coward.)

 

Hey Spelly, perhaps you are secretly a European. As you have so clearly been told by some people we are all cowards and would gladly welcome you in our midst.

 

*applauds Tals statement*

Oh, come on, Laches. Stay.
You know, I am tired of a certain someone accusing France and Germany of cowardice and calling all of Europe primitive and insignificant - but I wont leave because of ít. And I wont change my civil tone. Especially not when dealing with the respectable american folks around here. Surely you can do the same.

 

Cowards unite! But seriously, Laches, I hope you reconsider. I've read a lot of your posts and have always found them interesting, whether I've agreed or not with their points. Maybe it's just the way of things though in forums like AoDA....oscillations occur and people leave when they don't have the "fight" left in them anymore. If so, best of luck to you!

 

I wasn't complaining about the rules or saying they need to be changed. I was just stating a fact: most Americans will not tattle. Maybe it's more concentrated in certain regions, but as a Midwesterner, I was taught that being a "snitch" is about as low as it gets. And it has to do with mistrusting authority rather than having no respect for "cowards", IMO. Nothing will get you ostracized faster in American schools than being perceived as the "teacher's pet", except perhaps having a mental or physical disability.

And thank so many of you for proving my point by attacking my and Laches' posts, and even us personally, rather than than discussing them or disagreeing in a civil manner.

 

Neriana -- I think you misinterpret things grossly here. The responses here were NOT meant as an "attack", as you seem to think. (And quite frankly, that thinking seems a bit paranoid to me.) What we are trying to do here is explain that "tattling" isn't a bad thing. As Tal mentioned in an excellent analogy, the moderators are the police of this board -- no different than an authority body in real life. Reporting posting violations is a responsibility for the betterment of all, not a subversive, underhanded action, as you seem to want to portray.

 

I’ve been thinking about this whole thing, and it occurs to me that the problem isn’t so much the lack of respect for other people (although IMO that lack of respect definitely exists); it’s also about a lack of respect for the process of debate (not that I consider myself by any means to be an expert in this area).

Laches brought up the example of comparing Bush to Hitler, and objected to it. Tal spent a large part of his “rebuttal” explaining why he is not about to sanction criticisms levied against Bush; while Tal is IMO absolutely correct in this approach, I have to respectfully suggest that he missed the larger picture. Although Laches didn’t actually say it, to me the point is not to stifle debate because one side or the other disagrees with the sentiments being expressed, but rather to make sure that the debate doesn’t become inflammatory and largely non-constructive, which IMO the Bush-to-Hitler comparison was. This example is just one of many. Of course, opinions will differ as to what constitutes “inflammatory and non-constructive”, but I think there can be a general consensus as to when the line has been crossed.

Having said that, I don’t really know what the best way is to avoid the problems. Upon reflection, I’m not sure that self-policing would work. On the other hand, the reporting violations is probably not going to be the answer either because: i) despite some of the above comments, many view it as distasteful tattling/snitching, ii) what constitutes a violation (under my definition of violating the process of debate) is subject to interpretation, and iii) if all perceived violations were reported, the mods/admins would probably spend an inordinate amount of time addressing them.

In the end, I guess the only approach is to stay away from the Alley if you don’t like the quality of the discussions.

 

This type of comment is one of the things that causes tension in the AoDA. I stated something that is a fairly well understood as fact in the United States. Rather than address the point, the reply was turned into a form of mockery. I doubt this was the intention, however.

People in the United States make a clear distinction between a state, its respective government and the people it serves. If someone has a complaint about the War on Terror, do not attack the President and levee insults such as "Bush is stupid". This is considered to be against the manners of intelligent discourse.

Second, one term that I believe causes a great deal of friction on the Boards is the word "America". To those on this side of the ocean, the term "America" does not simply refer to the Untied State Government. It also refers to "our" beliefs, ideals, philosophy and the people. What is America? In the United States, the answer is not the government. If someone wants to address the U.S. Government, use the term "U.S. Government" or "Federal Government".

Third, many people do not realize that treating the United States as an equal to any single European state is an insult. Americans see the United States as equal to a Europe – in both population and state-count (if such a aspect is valid for analysis) . Europeans would be insulted if I started comparing and treating California as equal to Europe as a whole. The opposite is also true.

Fourth, one of the aspects of the AoDA that is a form if irritation is - no matter the subject, no matter the issue - "America" is somehow to blame – or at least gets pulled into the subject. For instance, I could find an article and post that states United States scientists have discovered a cure for cancer. I would expect a response such as the following:

"Now that the Neocons are safe from cancer, they will drop all environmental protections ... especially in foreign states! American will then make everyone pay for treatment!"(Groan)




On other note....

I don't want to turn this into the AoDA, but I want to clarify a previous post. The feelings Americans have toward the French and German Governments (not the people) are not grounded in the War on Terror.

Germany yielded to terrorism in the horrific attack known as the Munich Massacre of 72. France denied U.S. fighter planes to cross over a small part of their territory to attack Libya for its involvement in terrorism. Both incidents were interpreted as behavior based on fear. When both of these two governments opposed to the War on Terror, their respective reputations reinforced the idea that "nothing has changed". Its unfortunate, I agree.

Of course, I would never post the preceding diatribe on the AoDA. Naturally, America is to blame for all of it.


Finally, it appears that comparing Bush to Hitler is fine to post to the Boards. However, if someone makes a comment about religion, they can be expected to be banned from a forum. While the anti-christian comments may have been offensive to some, a comparison between America and Hitler is rather vile.

So what's the solution to all this? There is none.

[ March 17, 2004, 14:55: Message edited by: Blackhawk ]

 

This thread has developed in an interesting way. What is supposed to be a "goodbye" thread has turned into a new forum on some of things that are of a more inflammatory nature in the AoDA. My feeling was that there were a few things being said that were not quite accurate. As someone who posts regularly on the Alley, I can say that there is a degree of civility between members. Being left of center and NOT a Bush supporter, I've nevertheless come to like and respect regulars such as Hack n Slash, Grey Magistrate, Great Snook, BTA, Jack Funk and yes, now that he's back in full-form, Darkwolf (I appologize if I've omitted or overlooked any other conservatives). The point is that I was surprised that a state of "incivility" existed at all between any of us as an ongoing situation. But there have been moments, I admit. One of the reasons I visit the Alley on a regular basis is because of their different viewpoints and the process at which they arrived at their opinions. One has to "fight the Fight" pretty hard to hold his own against the likes of them. And that for me is a large part of the fun.

But I will agree that what has been happening in the Alley has been polarizing to the point that it is incendiary at times. But it reflects the nature of politics, especially here in the US. Yet, it's always been like this. Here is some history:

This is what John Adams, second president of the US, thought it would be like for the man/woman who occupied the office. Of course, he was right. But he made these comments at the time of the FIRST true election. US Politics, from the beginning, has been of an incendiary nature. The two party system has bred this kind of rhetoric:

Three great Americans - Jefferson, Washington, and Adams. They symbolize everything that is American and that is patriotic. THEY WERE the Founding Brothers of the American Revolution. Yet even they could not escape the inflammatory rhetoric of American politics. No one is immune, not even George W. Bush.

IMO, it is because Americans value freedom of expression and thought above almost anything else. But that is not really a fair statement because it is all humanity that values these ideals; they are not just American.

The AoDA, despite all the negative talk about it, appears to respect the time-honored tradition that each individual is free to put his/her own thoughts on the boards without fear of Big Brother, within certain, reasonable bounds. Contrary to what some have been saying, the board is policed, but in a different manner. When someone makes a bold statement on the Alley boards, he had better have something to back that statement up with, because if not, he is about to be torn apart with no mercy by others who hold the opposing point of view. It can be a lonely experience at times in the Alley, almost like being on a raft in the middle of the ocean. This is just my opinion, but I think some stay away because of how demanding the AoDA can be; one has to dig pretty deep, in a manner of speaking, to survive there. Does anyone remember the thread on Gay Marriage? Good grief, I would have never thought that there would be that much to comment on a subject that is a non-issue in Amercian politics (note: it seems to have evaported as quickly as it appeared).

Oh, yeah, the Bush-Hitler thing - I still remember the 2000 primary, when John McCain was running against Shrub down in South Carolina, and all those "mysterious" phone calls about McCain's supposed illegitimate black children. Such is the nature of American politics. It's not very pretty; in fact it's downright ugly at times. But as someone once said: "if you can't stand the heat..." And it sure beats censorship. But really, we can argue this point better in the Alley.

[ March 17, 2004, 07:20: Message edited by: Chandos the Red ]

 

Well, we're off topic a bit from where we started, but I wanted to respond to this....

Agreed...."America" IS more than a government or the number of people within its borders. It's beliefs, ideals and philosophies. And the SAME can be said for European countries as well.

If countries are composed of more than numbers and debates surrounding these countries consist of more than population count disputes, I don't see how ANY kind of comparison can be termed an "insult". Size may matter, but not in most of our discussions here.

 

Can't you keep all this text inside AoDA?

Btw, Blackhawk; you're so lucky that I do not know anything about those two events. Beside that, do americans really think that the only thing that matters is size?

 

Yes!