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Fundamentalists & other Fun People.

Discussion in 'Alley of Dangerous Angles' started by Nakia, Feb 3, 2005.

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  1. Chandos the Red

    Chandos the Red This Wheel's on Fire

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    Chandos the Red, Feb 5, 2005
    #21
  2. The Magpie

    The Magpie Balance, in all things Veteran

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    Thanks! Having made an appearance I'm flying off now... Mr. Sandman's tugging at my lids with a-vengeance!

    *head collapses forward onto keyboard with a meaty THUD*

    [ February 05, 2005, 12:30: Message edited by: The Magpie ]
     
    The Magpie, Feb 5, 2005
    #22
  3. Nakia

    Nakia The night is mine Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    Thanks Tal and the rest of you.

    Welcome. Magpie, to the best and craziest board on the Internet.
     
    Nakia, Feb 5, 2005
    #23
  4. chevalier

    chevalier Knight of Everfull Chalice ★ SPS Account Holder Veteran

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    That's only true for lip service believers. Religious faith is naturally tied with someone's morals, ethics and related principles, as well as it affects his view of the world. This way it isn't inconsistent with thinking. Nay, it's intertwined. Plus, religion is a social matter and one involving morals. Social matters involving morals have a lot to do with politics. Therefore, it's impossible to separate your faith from your politics and be a good believer. Question is, if you can still be a good politician if you separate your practical politics from your beliefs, especially if you profess such moral and ethical beliefs in public, especially when fighting for the electorate's votes, while you don't let them interfere with your decisions. In my opinion, that's bad politics as well as bad faith.
     
    chevalier, Feb 5, 2005
    #24
  5. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    In the Catholic Church, there are plenty of religious dogmas and Papal edicts which, as far as I'm concerned, go against common sense and are a remnant of an age and mode of thinking long gone in the modern world. But, of course, this is a matter of opinion...
     
    Taluntain, Feb 5, 2005
    #25
  6. dmc

    dmc Speak softly and carry a big briefcase Staff Member Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    It is similar with certain branches of Judaism, Tal, and, IMHO, any carry-over fundamental religion shares certain characteristics: intolerance of other religions, dogmatic reliance on rules created at a different time and for different circumstances, and and unwillingness to adapt fully to the modern world. (There are degrees of each, depending on the religion.)

    I differentiate these fundamental religions from modern cults like Scientology only because the modern cults were created to deal with modern circumstances and sucker people out of their money or self-determination (or both).

    So, to look at what I am familiar with - Orthodox Judaism - you have a bunch of people who don't think anyone else is right (including other braches of Judaism), who desperately cleave to such outdated laws as Kosher food (originally created because a desert lifestyle without refrigerators made it difficult to keep certain foods around without spoiling and later expanded and adapted to help insulate the community against perceived abuses by gentile food-mongers), and who will in no way fully come into the 21st century (although they will pick and choose the parts that they want so long as it doesn't run afoul of the strict religious laws they follow).

    To contrast, we can look at the Amish. They are generally more tolerant of other people's beliefs, but they really want to be left alone. They really strictly follow the religious laws and they absolutely will not partake of modern day technology, with certain limited exceptions.

    Neat stuff.
     
    dmc, Feb 5, 2005
    #26
  7. chevalier

    chevalier Knight of Everfull Chalice ★ SPS Account Holder Veteran

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    I can't recall anything nonsensical in the dogma, but there's been quite a number of lesser quasi-religious beliefs that shouldn't even have made it. Just think of Galileo Galilei or the charges against St Jeanne d'Arc, or Moses with horns like a Satyr ("horn" and "ray" sound similar in Hebrew). There's been quite a lot of mistaken but popular beliefs, including traditions which contradict each other. Even the current Pope has had to peel through quite a lot of those.

    Still, it's not good for a politician to put his morals and ethics aside or for a believer to conduct his politics inconsistently with his beliefs.

    With people such as John Kerry, the problem is as follows:

    Facts:

    1. The RCC states openly: abortion is murder.
    2. The RCC teaches believers can't stay silent in face of murder.
    3. John Kerry considers himself as a Catholic in good standing.
    4. John Kerry advertises himself as a Catholic in good standing.
    5. John Kerry believes abortion should be legal.
    6. John Kerry says he privately agrees with everything the RCC teaches on abortion etc.
    7. The RCC says believers (and all people of good will etc etc) should not vote for candidates promoting abortion, stem cell research, human cloning and a couple of others.

    Inference:

    1. John Kerry privately believes abortion is muder.
    2. John Kerry both believes abortion is murder and promotes its legalisation.
    3. John Kerry believes Catholics cannot stay silent in face of murder and he still promotes allowance of what he (privately) considers murder.
    4. Following 6 and 7, John Kerry believes that Catholics should not vote for candidates promoting abortion, stem cell research etc.

    Conclusion:

    1. John Kerry believes he should not get votes (inference 4 from fact 6 and 7).
    2. Either John Kerry's pronounced beliefs are inconsistent with his internal beliefs or John Kerry's beliefs contain numerous irreconcilable contradictions (ignorance is not a possibility).

    Therefore, questions arise:

    1. To what extent will John Kerry's professed beliefs - used to present himself to the electorate and thus gain votes - will reflect on his policies?

    2. To what extent will John Kerry uphold his professed policies if he openly admits to believing privately in something entirely opposite?

    3. How can anyone, right or left, pro-abortion or pro-life, ever trust someone who beliefs that something he privately considers to be murder should be legal?

    Therefore, I'd rather vote for someone who genuinely believes that abortion is not murder, since such a person would at least not be legalising murder in his own eyes.

    Privately, I have made friends with people who believe abortion should be legal because they don't consider it murder. However, I stay away from people who believe it's murder but should be allowed on the grounds of freedom of conscience. Really, I have a worse opinion on such people than I have on people who believe killing of an innocent could be justified by the killer's rights.

    This being said, I believe people it's bad both for a politician and for a believer to do like Kerry does. Give me someone who's on either side of the fence. Sitting on the fence itself is bad for one's nether regions. Leaders should have cojones. Even if they are female.

    Before you ask, I'm not picking on Kerry. There's a couple of politicians who say the exact same or close, such as e.g. Sen. Ted Kenedy.

    Also before you ask, Bush considers himself a newborn Christian, while lying about the evidence of WMD in Iraq is a clear violation of VIII, if I've ever seen one. Using God's name to support one's own morally dubious action can't be reconciled with II. Torture (not enough evidence to blame Bush for anything except negligence, although guys in his administration typically claim to be Christians) typically goes against V. If there's oil in question, V and X come in. According to some news from Iraq, VI and IX are not popular, either. This pretty much makes 7 out of 10 unless we infer that putting certain things before God's commandments is idolatry (I), increasing it to 8 out of 10.

    So no vote for Bush, either.

    [ February 05, 2005, 20:26: Message edited by: chevalier ]
     
    chevalier, Feb 5, 2005
    #27
  8. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    Good lord Chev, still bashing Kerry? You're a dying race, you know... :shake: And in case you haven't noticed, we've tried our best to get back on topic and leave recent politics out of this thread. :rolleyes:
     
    Taluntain, Feb 6, 2005
    #28
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