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Full Class Rogues

Discussion in 'Dungeons & Dragons + Other RPGs' started by Cheesegear, Mar 15, 2007.

  1. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Why do you find sneak attacks harder and less satisfying than backstabbing?

    I haven't tried to analyse the two in any depth, but off hand sneak attack seems pretty much like a backstab that's easier to do.
     
  2. Shadow Assassin Gems: 13/31
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    you forget, the spellthief also gets to use magic beyond the spells stolen. The steal spell ability would come in quite handy against particularly strong spellcasters. Plus if you're unscrupulous you can sneak up and steal spells from random people. I see it as fun for roleplaying, but to each his own.
     
  3. Gnarfflinger

    Gnarfflinger Wiseguy in Training

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    BTA: 2e backstab was really hard to execute, but 3e sneak attack is easier to pull off and a better alternative...

    SA: That sounds interesting, I'll have to get that book and see the class for myself...
     
  4. Fly2tHeSkY

    Fly2tHeSkY Southern Comfort Veteran

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    Backstab wasn't hard to execute?? It's actually a lot easier than a 3e version and more potent too.

    @Gnarl, how is it a better alternative..
     
  5. Ilmater's Suffering Gems: 21/31
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    A level 20 rouge does as much damage with his/her sneak attack as a max level fireball or lightening bolt (10d6) and can be used once a round so long as the rouge is flanking their opponent or catches their foe flat-footed. Sneak attack as easy as can be to implement, so long as you get a +2 flanking bonus to your attack, your first attack gains a sneak attack bonus (assuming you aren't fighting a member of the undead, a plant, ooze or construct). A rouge doesn't have to hidden to use a sneak attack, as sneak attack represents an attack on an unprotected vital area.

    A level 20 rouge with a Str of 12 and a +3 short sword does a lot of damage (1d6+4+10d6) when he lands a sneak attack.
     
  6. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    How is a backstab easier than a sneak attack? As far as I recall anything that would qualify for a backstab in 2E qualifies for a sneak attack in 3E, and there are far more circumstances that qualify for a sneak attack, including ranged weapons.
     
  7. raptor Gems: 16/31
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    You get sneak attack in 3E in any situation where you suprise enemy (he is "flatfooted"), any situation where he is immobolised or held (basically any situation where he looses dexterity to armor class), anytime when flanked, if you are hidden (hide/move silently, or invisibility etc), and probablly a few others I have forgotten to mention. Oh and in 30 feet or less with a ranged attack with the same qualifiers.

    Definitivelly not difficult to accomplish, in some of our games this meant in short that the rogue got sneakattack more than 50% of the time with some tactical movement in combat etc.

    Hm, never noticed that rogues only get sneak attack on first attack a round ? I gotta read up on that again, I thought they got it on all attacks as long as they qualified on the top above list.
     
  8. Ilmater's Suffering Gems: 21/31
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    That's a misquote by me, I was without my PHB and going off the top of my head (I'm often very forgetful when it comes to details).
     
  9. Gnarfflinger

    Gnarfflinger Wiseguy in Training

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    Actually, a target is flatfooted until his first action in a combat if they are surprised, so one shot in a surprise round then a second shot if you beat the initiative (good chance with a higher dex and improved initiative).

    Flanking gives the Sneak attack as already mentioned where as it doesn't give a back stab. I found that back stab had to be carefully planned and executed, where as a sneak attack can be done repeatedly during a session...
     
  10. Faragon Gems: 25/31
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    Funny thing, if you want to be a good sneak attacker, you're actually better of being a rogue multiclassed with a full BAB class instead of going full out in rogue levels. After all, loads of sneak attack dice are worthless if your attack bonus isn't high enough to consistently hit.
     
  11. raptor Gems: 16/31
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    Faragon: A full class rogue doesn't have to shabby BAB anyways, he will recive the same bab as cleric and ruid for example, +3 bab for every 4 levels. If you take this into consideration, and set out stats and feat selection in a reasonable way then you can get some quite good attack bonuses.

    Example is Halfling with dex 20, weapon finesse and rapier, even at first level he can easilly have +6 to hit (+5 for dex and +1 for beeing small), and with all the sneak attack the strength doesn't matter as much. That is as much as a Half orc Barbarian with 20 strength (without weapon focus).

    And as many people have found in alot of the 3E games, a Cleric can often be a better warrior than fighters despite have this "lower" bab.
     
  12. Fly2tHeSkY

    Fly2tHeSkY Southern Comfort Veteran

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    Well those rules substitute well into such games as NWN and ToEE but in IWDII it's a little different because all I recall is getting ONE sneak attack per round and only with melee weapons..

    I can see how sneak attack would be classified better in NWN but I guess since I'm playing IWDII at the moment that's where my opinion is coming from BTA, because in this game I would much prefer to backstab.. While in NWN I'm sure I could find using sneak attack useful if it works with ranged weapons ;)
     
  13. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Ah, now I get it. Yeah IWD2's implementation of the rules for sneak attack was really poor.

    However, this is the D&D forum, not the IWD2 forum :)
     
  14. Gnarfflinger

    Gnarfflinger Wiseguy in Training

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    Faragon: I found that 16 rogue and 4 fighter (or Duelist Prestige class) gave me the +16 BAB at 20th level, giving me the 4 attacks with primary (and 3 with secondary if I went for 2 weapons).
     
  15. raptor Gems: 16/31
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    SilverShield: IWD2 sneak attack was horrible, it was just a hacked version of the backstab from 2E, in short it got the bad end from both.

    Try a game like Temple of Elemental Evil (if it works!) and you can make some insane uses of Sneak Attack. The most correct to D&D rules game I have seen yet, awesome when it actually works and doesn't bug.

    Gnarfflinger: You would only loose a single AB from going 20 full levels of rogue instead (4 fighter levels give +4 bab, while 4 rogue levels give +3 bab), I can understand the want for 16 bab to get the 4th attack per round though. But you are also trading an extra 2D6 sneak attack damage for a meager +2 dmg from weapon specialisation. At that level you still got enough feats for most things, and don't really benefit from the hitpoitns as much. Basically loosing some skills, and getting a slight buff to fort saves. I am not so certain I would have done the same, matter of taste I guess.
     
  16. Gnarfflinger

    Gnarfflinger Wiseguy in Training

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    Raptor: I was looking beyond 20. BaB cuts off at 20th level, giving instead an Epic bonus to attack, which means that the attacks you have at 20th are all you get without taking more feats. My example also takes into account Improved and Advanced (or is it Greater) two weapon fighting (if both exist, then the last fighter level would be at 20th so you could take that last one).

    Actually, I've also looked at something called a "Gestalt Character" in Arcana Unearthed. Counting as 2 levels higher than your actual level you get the class features of two classes, taking the better where there is a conflict. This way, you can have the arcane or combat support without sacrificing the thiving skills. If I ever get to be "just a player" in a group that would allow that, I'd like to try it...
     
  17. Fly2tHeSkY

    Fly2tHeSkY Southern Comfort Veteran

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    So, just correct me please..

    Sneak attack in 3e (and 3.5e), is an attack that connects when the opponent is 'flat footed' or engaged with another enemy (or something like that yes?). Now can you receive an unlimited amount per round or is it just limited to one?

    And yes sorry BTA, I didn't play much of NWN and I havn't played ToEE so I havn't had much 3e experience yet, sadly just IWDII, so you can see what I mean :)

    But could someone just give a final, detailed description of the new sneak attack laws for me please :)

    Back on topic, IF you could get an unlimited amout per round, I would definitely choose a full class rogue again :D
     
  18. Ilmater's Suffering Gems: 21/31
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    Here is straight from the 3.5 Player's Handbook "If a rouge can catch an opponent when his is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage. Basically, the rouge's attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rouge flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at the 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rouge levels thereafter. Should the rouge score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied.

    Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 ft. A rouge can't strike with deadly accuracy from beyond that range.

    With a sap (blackjack) or unarmed strike, a rouge can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the unusual -4 penalty, because she must make optimal use of her weapon in order to execute a sneak attack.

    A rouge can only sneak attack living creatures with discernible anatomies-undead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures lack vital areas to attack. Any creature immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to sneak attacks. The rouge must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rouge cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking a creature whose vitals are beyond reach." (50)
     
  19. Fly2tHeSkY

    Fly2tHeSkY Southern Comfort Veteran

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    Which in turn means an unlimited amount of times, provided the rogue's target is caught unaware or defenceless..
     
  20. Ilmater's Suffering Gems: 21/31
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    A wonderful cheese tactic is to pair a Mind Flayer with a Duergar Rouge (duergar's invisibility spell-like ability with it's +4 racial bonus to Move Silently makes it likely it'll go unnoticed). After the Mind Flayer mind blasts the PCs leaving them stunned, the duergar uses enlarge person and goes to work with sneak attacks, while the mind flayer does to work with extract or continues to mind blast away at still mobile targets. Dead party in just a handful of rounds.

    If a rouge gets paired with something that can stun or paralyze targets...
     
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