Freud's view, and yours...on homosexuality.

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Heroic pro gay speeches. Ahm, I do not make heroic pro gay speeches. It's just, that in my country, a "legalization" of gay-marriage is coming. Now, I just presenting a position, which is in my country contreversial too, but is likely to win a referenda. So, there are a lot of countries on the continent, where homosexual couples have rights to "merry", mostly it's hidden behind an "analogy" to marriage. But it's an development which is unvaoidable and considering the situation in the UK, hm, maybe reason for more internal friction between European countries.

I'd like to argue that point. Homophobia is cultural/Sociological. If it was a "natural" reaction, it would be evenly distributed around every country. But it is not. Some counties/communities have stronger leaning to it, than others. And natural fear over disabled and sick people. Yes, there is fear, but there is (as a black point in history clearly shows) often some cultural/political/sociological amplifier to it. If people get used to other people, having only one arm, they don't "fear" it, because they are used to it. And education has an important fact in it. Hmmm, I am a next door neighbour to an "asylum" for "retarded" and "disabled" people (Lack of English vocubalary). I mean down-syndrom and so on. That's another discussion, I am used to.

[ May 17, 2003, 14:16: Message edited by: Yago ]

 

I'm not sure where this thread is going. It started out as a medical question and is now becoming a moral or social acceptance question.
As far as the latter question is concerned: I don't pass judgement on people based on sexual preference. As in most matters you cannot know what a person has or is experiencing in his or her life until you have been in their shoes.

In matters that are political or legal, then the law and policy issues should be applied evenly to all regardless of such preferences. Anything less is to deny individuals their humanity.

 

I think you have to differenciate between someones physical characteristics and the social actions they make. For example, some ugly people are actually very sexually active while some attractive people are very non-sexual. I could provide many, many other examples on the differences between physical differences and the personalities that lie there in, but that will suffice. I think gender is no different. While it is statistacally much more probable for the chemicals that define male to occur in the male phenotype, it is not absolute.

Having a penis does not make you male.

I think popular culture wants to tell us that gay men can in fact be everything else male except they like to have sex with men, but in my own life I have found this to not be true. While the fact that obviously gay men are well, obviously gay, may lead to bad "data" for me I still tend to trust my own opinions and eyes more than the cultures.

Gay men are feminine.

Femininity is the result of a more female personality.

So basically what I am saying is open car doors for gay guys and don't ask them their age.

I don't think femininity is UN-NATURAL and in fact, I love women. A lot. But that is just me and my male personality. But at the same time I am attracted to a female phenotype as well as a female personality. Lucky me for this makes me normal and avoids painful social stigmas.

Now that I write this I am starting to realize how difficult it must be to be gay. Being attracted to a male phenotype while at the same time attracted to a male personality that probably does not exist in the body type that is willing to have sex with me. It must be lonely.
It must be true that what gay men want most is a straight male. And we have a popular hatred for them. Very painful stuff.

 

Only a small small portion of gay men are what you describe late-night-thinker. What you describe are transsexual, meaning a man born in the body of a woman or vice versa. It happens but far from all gay men are it. Most gay men are comfortable with being men, and gay. They have no desire to be women, they are what they are. They just happen to be attracted to people of the same gender. If gay people are what you describe wouldnt that make all gay men into gay women trapped in a mans body?

 

nope you missed my point

a transexual is someone who wants to have the female phenotype while he is currently a male phenotype

a homosexual is someone who has a male phenotype while possessing a female personality

edit...

that last line sounded harsh and overly simple

what i mean is a homosexual is someone who has a male body while possessing a feminine soul and a attraction to other males bodies and personalities

 

I firmly believe that there is a genetic predisposition for being homosexual. I do not, however, believe that this destines someone to be homosexual -- sex is an act and we can control and choose our actions, no matter what the shrinks say. I believe that homosexuality is wrong -- just because we have a desire (in the genes, even!) to do something doesn't make that thing right.

Now don't be calling me a Nazi. My brother is not just gay, he's flaming gay! But I still love him, and haven't tried to kill him, so you know what you can do with all you're "homophobe" flames.

 

This is a subject I feel very strongly about. I myself am 100% straight, and I am perfectly comfortable with my sexuality. I think that being gay is perfectly acceptable. Most people say that it isn't natural. The fact that it occurs without any outside influcence (surely people are born gay or straight...) shows that it is natural. Alright, it means that they can't reproduce, but there are enough straight people around to do that anyway!

I don't think that it is a 'sickness' i just think that being gay is different to being straight.
Being black is different to being white.
Being male is different to being female.

People shouldn't discriminate against somone because they find the same sex attractive, they should judge the person for who they are. Thats the way I have, am, and am going to live my life.

 

Yeah brill speech youngy but i thought enough people have pointed out, noone is saying homosexuality is wrong!

Jeez, homosexuality being natural or not is NOT the same issue as homosexuality being right or not.

Now as for your white/black point. These variations occcur because black people come from hot countries where it was nessesary to develop a ressitance to sunlight etc etc. In fact almost all differences in humans occur as a form of evolution to a more efficient being.

However, being incapable of reproducing CANNOT be seen as evolution, it is a malfunction. It contrasts with the very basis of human existence.


And please cut out the pro gay speeches, it makes people who are trying to have a biological disscussion out to be homophobes.

 

I too am 100% straight, and have no problem with homosexuality. Furthermore, I've never understood why people get so angry and up-in-arms about it. How can something that has nothing to do with you get you so bent out of shape? Makes no sense to me. Here are a few viewpoints that have always bothered me greatly, and I've always rejected as petty ignorance.

Homosexuality is a sickness. This suggests that being gay is something someone is infected with. That they are diseased, and that this disease is something acquired from an immoral lifestyle. Well, I for one can think of about 20 immoral heterosexuals right now for every one immoral homosexual. No one has ever "caught" homosexuality as a result of any lifestyle, association or infection...or anything else. Disorder? Perhaps. Abnormality? Sure. Sickness? No.

Homosexuals are sick perverts. I don't have exact figures, but everything I've read and seen over the years suggests that the vast majority of those who've commited sexual crimes are straight.

source
The idea that gay people roam the streets and bar scene at night looking for an anal cavity to fill is totally abhorant to me. People seem to think gays are like "ass vampires" or something. Well, if you're a sicko, then you're a sicko - regardless of your sexual preference. I have several gay friends, and have had several casual acquaintances who were gay. As of this writing, I haven't been gang raped yet. I can confidently say my cornhole is indeed quite safe.

Homosexuality goes against God. The idea that loving someone of the same sex is on the same par as murder to some people has always made me laugh. I've heard many people give "it goes against everything I believe in" as their reason why being gay "is just wrong." These are usually people of a conservative christian inclination, but I'm not pigeonholing anyone. When I ask them to explain this logic, all any of them seems to come up with is "it's just wrong and gross!" Okay. So if it goes against everything you believe in, show me one gay person - just one - who is a murderer, liar, thief, adulterer, blasphemer, sabbath-basher, parent hater, neighbor stuff & wife coveter, polytheist, and idol-worshiper all in one. The vast majority of gays I know are actually much more polite, friendly, accepting, generous and law-abiding people than a lot of the straight ones I know.

About the only semi-compelling and logical arguement I've ever heard on the subject, from a religious standpoint, was that the bible states that "man shall not lie with himself." Well, like the rest of the bible, this is greatly open to interpretation. To me, this says "don't jerk off" a lot clearer than it says "don't be gay."

People choose to be gay. People know at a young age whether or not they are gay. They just know it. Some come to accept their reality sooner in life than others, and many simply deny it and struggle with their feelings their entire lives. Most people who just up and decide they're gay are teenagers who are searching for self identity and cling to the most extreme one they can find. Teenagers are notorious for doing things for shock value just to get attention. I knew 2 guys in highschool and one girl who were "gay." Today, one of the guys is married (to a woman!) and the girl is now engaged (to a man!). Only the one guy - who was always actually gay - is still gay. But he was always comfortable and open with it, because that's who he really was. The other two were always dark and mysterious about it, and never seemed comfortable with it. Now I know why.

About the only thing that bugs me about homosexuality is the whole ass thing. Come on fellahs...that's the out door! But just like Celine Dion's singing and Keanu Reaves' acting...I'm pretty sure I can live with it.

 

Actually, homosexuality being right or wrong has a direct influence on whether it is natural or not. If we can identify that homosexuality is wrong in the sight of God, then it is obviously not natural because it would be something that was contrary to His will and creation.
So...does the Bible say anything about homosexuality being wrong? Leviticus 18:22. Moses tells the men of Israel here "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is an abomination."
Remember, too, that homosexuality is one of the main reasons that the city of Sodom was destroyed in Genesis 19. It is not of God, therefore it is not natural. It is an abomination in the eyes of God, therefore it is wrong.
Like any other sin, it is something that we can choose to do. For some it is a much bigger temptation than others. Just as some people are tempted more by lust than others, the same is true with the sin of homosexuality. It is a very powerful temptation for some people - I have seen friends of mine struggle with it - while others will never have a problem with it. We can philosophize about the topic through opinions all day long. Or we can open a Bible and see it for what it is - not a lifestyle or a chemical imbalance, but a sin that can be overcome through obedience to Christ.

 

@ Quicksylver

Well, you can thump your bible all you want. Taking a book that was written and rewritten several times over the last two thousand years as an unquestionable moral guide for our constantly changing society is a sadly small minded way to view the modern world. I could spend all day talking about all the things the bible states that shouldn't be taken literally and have no validity today, but that's a whole other topic.

I trust experience, logic and facts over theology any day, and all three tell me that homosexuality is harmless. "Right" or "wrong," it's not hurting anybody. There isn't one homosexual out there who doesn't wish they were "normal," so to say it's all temptation is ludicrous. What's so damn "tempting" about being hated, outcast, misunderstood and shunned? I've never been "tempted" in my life, and one of my best friends is a very handsome, openly flirtatious gay man. I didn't need Christ to tell me that that wasn't for me, just like he didn't need you to tell him he's sinful human filth. Never mind the fact that his deep faith in God and regular church attendance puts mine to shame. I find your narrow - I daresay fanatical - viewpoint far more dangerous than homosexuality could ever be. The very idea that purging your own personal nature through "obedience to Christ" goes against the very idea of Christ being a loving, accepting, understanding, forgiving entity, because being gay itself isn't harmful to anyone, and I dare you to prove that it is.

[ May 21, 2003, 17:46: Message edited by: Death Rabbit ]

 

Two things:

1)

See, here is where I think there is a flaw. Assume that it is the funtion of the human race to reproduce. From that it does not follow that it is the function of every human to reproduce. It is species that survive through the generations and evolve and not individuals. Looking at it this way, homosexuals make perfect natural sense if they are uniquely able to contribute something to the species.

Now, here is my controversial part: I believe that there is a disproportionately high number of contributions made by homosexuals to society as a whole as opposed to the contribution coming from heterosexuals. Don't get me wrong, I don't mean that the sum of all heterosexual contributions is outweighed by the sum of all homosexual contributions - I mean that given the small number of homosexuals the extent of their contributions is staggering - we're all using computers right?

Thanks Wittgenstein and Alan Turing.

Now, perhaps this is an instance of correlation and not causation but it is something to ponder.

Also, how if it occurs in nature isn't it by definition natural? Homosexual monkeys. Homosexual people....hmmmm....

2)

This is incorrect according to a number of Catholic Bible scholars who are hardly appologists for homosexuals. In the age and time of Sodom among the greatest sins that could be committed was to not shelter your guests. My memory is old, but someone from the city turned over his guest to enemies. The result was... destruction of Sodom.

As a sidenote - to this day not protecting a guest is still one of the greatest sins.

 

Does actually anyone read my posts ?

Quicksylver wrote:

Yes, that's true. But, like posted above, the protestants have a bigger problem than catholics. Protestants, in Europe, facing a shism. It may be, that a lot of protestants in the USA, have a different bible interpretation. But the two protestant sites are in a stalemate. Shism is unavoidable. Well, the presbyterian church in my country is against any discrimination of people because of the sexual orientation, of course, there's a minority of presbyterians opposed to it, like I said, shism is unavoidable.

The theory I've heard and convinces me the most, there is no stronger motor, than beeing an outsider in a society. It makes people work harder, think more and makes them able to have very different perspectives about everything. That's not only for homosexuals, but for a lot of minority groups.

That's something I've never heard mentioned before. But I appreciate the input, because it sounds very convincing to me. In middle-eastern cultures, particularly in islam, a guest is something precious and has always to be protected.

 

Death Rabbit - hold on, home skillet. "Sinful human filth." Your words, not mine. I never once said that God has no love for homosexuals, so don't put words in my mouth. He loves all of His creation. However, He despises sin. The Bible tells us homosexuality is a sin, just like drunkenness or murder or adultery. God does not rank sins, so it's not a matter of does it hurt people - if it's wrong in the sight of God, then it's wrong...whether you or I like it or not.

God DOES have love for us. He never would have sent Christ to die as a sacrifice for our sins if he did not. But He will not abide with sin.


Laches - don't listen to other scholars without reading the Bible for yourself. Check Gen. 19 again - verse 5 - the men of Sodom tell Lot to bring out the young men who were with him earlier (who were actually angels sent by God to warn Lot)so they could commit fornication with them. Sodomy has been strictly forbidden, Old Testament and new - 1 Corinthians 6:9 says "abusers of themselves with mankind" shall not inherit the kingdom of God. If you look up the original Greek word, it is arsenokoites, which means "one guilty of unnatural offences; a sodomite; homosexual; sex pervert."

So back to the statement of homosexuality not being harmful - if it can keep one out of the kingdom of God, i.e. condemn their soul for eternity, doesn't that seem harmful?

Now am I saying that homosexuals should be bashed and hated? Of course not, that's ridiculous. We've all sinned (Romans 3:10 - There is none righteous, no not one), so homosexuality doesn't need to be presented as this exclusive ultra-evil sin. It's the same as all the others - wrong in the sight of God.

 

So what you're saying is that homosexuality sends you to hell, despite the rest of your behavior?

Let's take Bob for example. Bob has never committed a crime, cheated on anything or otherwise wished any harm to another soul. Bob runs a homeless shelter, regularly donates his time and money to after school programs, cares for sick animals, never curses, regularly attends his church, pays his taxes, fully supports his children and is in all aspects an excellent member of society and an honorable human being. His wife passed away 6 years ago to cancer. But after years of denying his true feelings because society and his church told him it was wrong, Bob finally admits to himself and the world that he is gay. He begins dating a man and for the first time in his life he feels like a whole, comfortable person. His children, though a little thrown off at first, support it fully and are thrilled that he's found happiness and true self respect.

Please explain to me why Bob is going to rot in hell.

Sidenote - home skillet? Dude, I haven't heard that one forever!

 

(Heh - Damon Wayans, In Living Color).

Anyway, instead of me answering, I'll just quote Romans 1: 26-32:

"For this cause God gave them up to vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature;

And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is indecent, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to reprobate mind, to do those things which are not proper.

Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity, gossipers;

BAckbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful;

Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them."

Basically, these verses answer the question I think - those who do such things will face the judgment of God - Galatians 5 says they will not inherit the kingdom of God.

As for your friend being happy and feeling complete, DR, that doesn't make it ok. I know how harsh it sounds. But I know men who have cheated on their wives and enjoyed it. But that certainly doesn't make it ok.

God has given us scriptures on the matter, and as the above-quoted verses say, He will give us over to choose if we will obey or not. I.e. he won't necesaarily stop me from lying all the time...but if I continue to lie and do not turn away from that sin, I will answer for it.

It's just not enough to be a "good person." Christ says in Matthew 19:16 "Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is, God; but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."

The only way we can be acceptable is by keeping the commands we've been given, though they will often clash with our personal desires.

(sorry the post is so long)

 

A few things, though I think we are beginning to understand each other.

Comparing a sleazebag who cheats on his wife to a man being true to himself is an unfair comparison. Your friend broke the vows of marriage, actively lied to his wife, and furthermore enjoyed doing so. My friend is breaking no one's trust (his wife passed away many years ago) and is in a committed, monogomous relationship. Believe me, he would rather be attracted to women, but that's just not who he is. Anything else would be lying to himself for the sake of others (the greatest sin, IMO). Your friend's actions have a direct and lasting impact on his family and will eventually serve to shatter his children's image of what marriage is and should be. His actions are completely selfish and especially harmful to those who love and trust him. My friend merely wants to feel okay in his own skin, after years of denying his own feelings for the comfort of others. He has decided to finally live the life that feels natural to him and be at peace with himself - a choice that harms no one.

If we as humans strive to lead a good, clean life, I can't imagine a god that would overlook the good in a person because of a physical attraction and love for another human being, even if it is another man. This is not deviant sexual behavior we're talking about here, but honesty and self-insistance.

Did I miss a comandment? Was "thou shalt not love another man" the eleventh commandment that they left out because they ran out of room on the tablets?

 

Rabbit, you already know pretty well what I'm going to say, but I'll say it again anyhow. As far as I'm concerned, the commandment regarding adultery covers it all for me. Sex out of wedlock is forbiddden, whether that sex be with man, woman or beast (yuck!) Despite the posts above arguing that the Bible doesn't really forbid homosexual activity, as far as I'm concerned, the several previously quoted scriptures are sufficient proof that the Bible does forbid such activity. I liked the way Sylver put it -- it may not be easy for us to follow God's commands, but it is possible. Going back to the "it's the way they are" argument, I simply don't buy that. Our desires may not be controllable, but our actions are.

Of course, if you don't believe the Bible, then none of this makes any difference to a you, right? I treat homosexuals the same way I treat people who are living together common law,or people who smoke weed. As long as they don't do anything right in front of me, they can do what they want. I think they're wrong, but I'm not going to smash them or vandalize their cars, or even tell other people what they're doing.

Oh, and as for the "right in front of me" comment, I think that when it comes to sex, that would apply even to married couples! For less obvious Public Displays of Affection, given that I feel homosexuality is wrong, I would probably avoid them if they were too mushy -- come to think of it, that applies to common law and married people too!

 

Well, sorry, but I think I have a little problem with that statement. Yes, it's good to take a look at things oneself. But relying on scholars is an important compenent of modern society. Yes, I look inside a lawbook, but I as a lawyer what it exactly means. I look inside an article about medicine, but I ask a doctor what it means.

Can I read and and interpret the holy scripture myself, no I can't. I have neither training in exegese, nor can I read Latin, Greek, Hebrew or Armenian (sp ?). And I sure have no time to read that whole thing through. I need that time to play computer games or post on boards.

In other words, it is not necessary to know the bible by hard, to have an opinion what it means, nor is it wrong to know the opinions of scholars.

 

I am not going to join the religion argument as i see many aspects of it to be absurd.
However i will make one small gripe.
You cannot simply say that a homosexual can just 'not' have intercourse with a man. That is simply ridiculous. They feel sexual urges and tension exactly the same as heterosexuals do, It isn't a side track you know.... homosexuality cannot be cured.
Oh and if God really had anything to do with the bible then send me to hell, i want to be as far away from that nutcase as possible....


Anyway back to my area of discussion:

Laches i think you have made a brilliant point however i am now going to attempt to argue it.

It is true that a great deal of inventors, politicians, leaders, artists etc etc are or were gay. And i think that possibly you are right by saying that they give a disproportionate amount into society.
Now this could be explained by, as you said, nature itself creating, as it were, different models of humans to work towards a team future.

But i think you are missing another reason for this.

I personally have noticed lately that my friends who are gay tend to be of exactly the same work ethic as everyone else, why? Because they are accepted more readily.

All the great geniuses of the world (well most of them anyway, lets not have a side argument please) had got to their position through a level of effort and dedication unbeknown to most. In fact many were segregated from society by choice (or otherwise) and practically lived in their own world.
But i believe the prime catalyst for this seclusion was non-acceptance, lets face it, gays were not accepted 'back then' and would have been pushed into isolation opr hard work, possibly through fear of being found out or even shame, so that they had to improve themselves.

I believe that to be the main cause of this homosexual work ethic.
what do you think?