France in flames

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I corrected my first post to what I was meant to say anyway...

If I moved to Saudi Arabia, I would not claim that it was my 'right to drink alcohol'. Though I am from a different country, I shall respect the local laws and culture of my new host.

 

You are right with everything you said, Fabius. I know...

But the Turks cannot just sit in the pouting corner. Interestingly its mainly Turkish but not Greeks, Spanish or Italian immigrants doing that. I wonder why that is... Anyway, they must realize that scorning us for our mistakes is first and foremost to their own personal disadvantage. We can try to invite them through proper policies - and thankfully something is finally being done in that regard. But if they do not take that hand... we cannot force them to.

Frankly, I dont have the feeling that they will. So what to do?

 

Seeking to escape the military service eh?

Yeah, the free movement of people is pretty much just fancy words on a paper and very far from reality. Young and uneducated people still have a very hard time in trying to move from a country to another and those with expirience and education are usually satisfied enough with their position and won't move unless they absolutely have to (due to political or ethnical perseuction, natural disaster etc.).

The nordic countries have a pretty good agreement on the movement of people and moving to Sweden, Norway or Denmark is not all that hard, and there is a lot of cooperation in that regard. I know personally several who study in either Sweden or Norway, I know none who study in Denmark but from what I've heard it's not much more difficult to get there either, the language causes more trouble for us though. You might want to explore that option too unless you absolutely want to move away from the north in fear of snow.

 

The turks are the biggest minority group here. That's why they get the most attention, i.e. media coverage.

I am not sure that there is no will to integrate. Many turkish parents send their children to kindergarten, even if there is someone at home. They hope that the children learn german. Language classes had long waiting lists for years now, and the new obligatory ones are overrun.

But on the other hand I can understand them if they don't see the need. They lived left to their own devices for decades, thanks to conservative "multiculturalism". And collective beliefs change slowly.

And even now they are not accepted or hated by many germans. I just had to end a "discussion" on another board with someone who voted shooting down the french rioters. And he was not alone.

 

Perhaps it needs some more time given the new circumstances here. I am prepared to give them the chance, but I am not sure others are too. The atmosphere is... tense. On both sides.

Right. There is a lot of hatred for Turks. But this hatred doesnt stem from them not speaking German. And that you know. There are other reasons for Turks being loathed by lot of Germans.

 

Which are...? Prejudices? Lack of Knowledge? It all comes down to that.

 

Nothing so highstrung. I know a lot of people want to attribute people that dont like Turks with a "fear of foreign cultures", lack of openmindedness and suchlike. Thats unfair. Surely you dont do it as well?

The reasons are of a more pragmatic nature. Lets call it unpleasant encounters in real life. A lot of Turks are pretty aggressive and hostile. Ever come into a tight spot with them? I have several times. So have friends of mine. So have my parents, the mother in particular. And... yeah - you get my point.

 

Just a joke picture showing situation in France :
http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/440/francuskienoce7qm.jpg

 

Wrong. Where I am, it's mostly the Greeks, the Italians, Albanians, Spanish and the Yugoslavians. The Turks are alright. The country the immigrant hails form doesn't have that much to do with the dynamics of immigration and it's problems and failures.

Yes. Those very cheap settlements that were added to exisitng villages or cities. Ugly buildings from the 60-70s, cheap, very cheap housing for an even cheaper labour-force. And a dead-end for the biggest part of all the children that grew up there. And integration becomes very hard if, like its usus, the classes are made up out 1/3 from the actual country while the other 2/3 hail from various countries, speak various languages but only small fragments of the language of the host country.

T

 

Britain has always shied away from policies, like those of France, that seek to enforce homogenisation and identity from the top down. Our capitol London has a long history of absorbing large numbers without breaking down the cultural ties within communities that are a source of security, allowing migrants to adapt at their own pace. Even though memories of rioting in the seventies still endure; nowhere is there polarisation as evident as that in Paris. It must be remembered that collective solidarity grows from the bottom up, not the top down, and it feeds on economic development, social engagement and jobs.

 

Iago, the fact things are different in your place doesnt make what I said wrong at all. I was speaking of Turkish immigrants in Germany, that there are some serious problems involved with that mix and it is correct.

 

You're right in so far as it is the Turks that make up the biggest bulk of the immigrants and therefore it is with them that the most immigration problems are connected. Yet it would be a wrong conclusion to say the problem are the turks. The problem is a failed immigration. And it doesn't matter from where the immigrant hails.

The problem is, can the host-society integrate them ? If we are not willing to make the effort, than we should do like Canada and let only high-skilled people in.

 

The language barrier is a huge problem though...

If the Turks and Germans were living in the same areas, then there would be less problems.

Making schools in N.Ireland integrated (i.e. Catholics and Protestants going to the same schools) eased tensions. Now we have what we called 'mixed areas' in certain towns and cities, which are now the most desirable places to live. No-one wants to live in an all Catholic, or all Protestant area hellhole. I am sure a similar model can be introduced in Germany and France...

 

@ Iago You are right in what you say, of course.

But understand this: I did not claim it must be the Turks for everyone. The French have their own problems with other groups, it would seem... same for the Dutch, Belgians, Spanish.

The fact remains that integration failed. And for Germany that centers mainly around the Turks. So I cannot help but mention them -- and not a flock of people that dont seem as much trouble around here. The others can speak of their own problems if they are so inclined. Where would we get if one spoke on behalf of all.

 

Cùchulainn - that is the exact problem with Paris, a city divided by a palpable racial barrier. Paris is almost universally white and middle class, the city's black and Arab population was, a generation ago, exiled to the doughnut of miserable new towns outside its inner ring road.

 

I am all for shootig rioters. It is not like they are poor innocents. If they want to burn cars and buildings, the police has to stop them somewhat.
If it comes down to them daring to burn churches, then there should be a mass murder of these rioters, on spot.

Morgoroth,

Would you elaborate on how anti-immigration laws would not be benefitial? I am still awaiting for the positive aspects of third world immigrants - again, not ideological points.

Wirhe,

Yes, that is a whole different matter. Myself would not want to see a wave of European immigrants to Russian or Ukraine - although it is not a very smart thing to do to move out to Ukraine nowadays anyway - but I dont think a few dozen who wanted to come there for a reason would be a big deal or anything. In the other hand, people from outside of Europe should be granted NO permittion whatsoever.
I am glad you like Russia's policy on tourism.

 

I hope the U.S. politicians are taking notes as to what happens with runaway immigration without integration. Although, I doubt it.

 

What do you all mean by integration, really? Because in Russia the National minorities - which are FAR more numerous than anywhere in Europe - have always been apart from Russian society and Nation, and there is no such big problem in Russia as there is in the West.
I dont think mixing is the solution. But then Russia is big and vast, and they can be relocated to wherever Russians fell like.

 

If they don't feel like parts of the society, it doesn't justify walking around and burning cars. They should all be tried for any crimes committed during the riot if they can be identified.

From what I've heard about the French situation, it comes from being too lenient, too tolerant, too indiscriminate. They have been putting up for too long with newcomers behaving as if they were either on own ground (and ruling it) or on hostile soil (and so everything goes). I've heard that even young immigrant males from hot Southern regions have been a pain from the point of view of French women, especially young and shapely. I've seen some of it on the part of young German Turkish immigrants on holidays in Spain. I had to kick them out when they met a pajama trip to our hotel in the middle of the day. My whole lineage was insulted by them and their teacher. Now imagine how people must feel if they face that daily and how it reflects back upon the troublemakers and then again on the locals. Another thing is no one forced the former colonial countries to go on conquest and acquire culturally foreign citizens.

It's good if newcomers keep their culture and all, but it shouldn't lead to a country within a country situation in which they do as they please because they have no respect for laws which aren't theirs.

I've always been in favour of equal rules. Equal meaning equal, no sissy affirmation/compensation kind of stuff. It looks like in France they just couldn't find the right way. Leaving minorities alone for most of time and then getting nasty when something happens isn't the best way IMHO. What's been described as the British way sounds better.

[ November 07, 2005, 18:36: Message edited by: chevalier ]

 

There is only one really and that's workforce. In aging Europe we need a lot of foreign workforce if we are to prevent an economical collapse when the population ages. Naturally it would all sort out sooner or later since an economical crisis would probably also lead to a population boom but I'd rather keep things stable. Also foreign expertice is allways appreciated, even with our high standards of education there is allways someone somewhere who knows how to do things a bit better and more efficently. Of course skilled immigrants are a lot less common than unskilled ones which is perfectly obvious, but I've seen plenty of compenent foreign doctors allthough I'll have to admit that I've seen a few incompetent doctors too.