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Forgotten Realms completely rebooted?

Discussion in 'Dungeons & Dragons + Other RPGs' started by Rawgrim, Jan 4, 2009.

  1. Rawgrim Gems: 21/31
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    I was visiting a friend the other day, and got to check out the new Forgotten Realms campaign setting, and the Player`s Guide to Faerun (4ed version). And truth be told, I was left quite stunned. Everything is completely changed. And the books were probably the poorest I have seen, in terms of contents.

    The entire history of the forgotten realms is covered in only 3 pages. So in other words, not very detailed.

    2 new races are added in the FR player\s guide thingy. The Drow, and the Genasi. The drow are now favored as rangers (drizzt *cough* *cough*) Wich pretty much ruins the continuity of all the dark elf books, where the race is clearly favored as clerics (for females). But now they are rangers. Wich makes sense since they live in huge CITIES underground.

    To completely change the race, and the continuity of the history of the setting is just...well. I don`t really find it a good thing, to put it mildly.
    The genasi, all 4 of them, are covered in 2 "stat-card". The only difference between them is a power thingy. Not much else.

    Loads of gods have been removed as well. Lathander, Bhaal, Tyr, Clangeddin, Lovitar, Talona, Mask, Arvoreen, Helm, and lots more.

    And Mystra of course, to make room for the WOW spellsystem look-alike.


    So whats up with this? any ideas? It just doesn`t make sense to ruin a very good campaign setting like this. Its the same map, but much less in it. I can`t hardly recognize it at all anymore. Its like a different world. And its not a cooler one.
     
  2. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    They had to do something since FR was getting stale and not attracting enough new players, and since a brand new setting attempt (Eberron) was a failure, they decided to stay with the Realms, but to mix things up enough for a lot of new things to be able to take place. It actually makes a lot of sense - certainly more than going on a new setting search again.

    They need more sales and they expect that this is the best way to go about securing them. Whether they're right or wrong, we'll see in due course.
     
  3. The Magister Gems: 26/31
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    That was my favorite goddess. :(
     
  4. Gnarfflinger

    Gnarfflinger Wiseguy in Training

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    Finally, the Drow are not a "super Race" that gives the player a huge advantage over other players just because of all kinds of super powers.

    AS for the Genasi, I like them for their applications as a Warlord, and they would be effective as a Fighter, Paladin, Swordmage, Wizard or a Two weapon Ranger. I don't see how everything fits with them, but I like the concept of them as a race. If this is the direction they go with new races, I must say I like it.

    As for the "Fluff" changes, I'm on the fence. I was never a fanboy for the Realms, viewing them as an example of the generic campaign world, but for my own purposes I just did my own thing anyway. It allowed me some flexibility to define the geography as I needed it...

    Interesting that you mention Eberron, Tal, It's slated to be released in the spring of 2009. The Player's Guide will feature the Artificer as a Playable class. On the WotC Forums, there is already speculation as to which world they will produce in 2010. Leading speculation is Dark Sun, Dragonlance and Greyhawk...
     
  5. Rawgrim Gems: 21/31
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    The drow never was a super-race though. The level adjustment made their saves and HP be quite abit lower than the other races at the same level. And besides they are a hated race. I have lost count of how many time a drow character has managed to cause the group trouble. just for being a drow. Elves pretty much attack those buggers on sight. And with the saves being abit low, poison kills a drow very very easily.
     
  6. Beren

    Beren Lovesick and Lonely Wanderer Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    After going over several boards, I learned the reasons were manifold:

    1) FR fan base were divided over Mystra. I and a lot of other FR fans liked her. But others perceived her as a Mary Sue, and WotC started to think of her as a stumbling block to winning new fans. Another criticism also helped ...

    2) Mystra being the most powerful goddess, and her Chosen being Uber npcs, they came across as the Justice League of Faerun that meant there wasn't any real tension when it came to good vs. evil. And the prospect of their intervention, or other uber good NPCs like Drizzt, hung like a specter over players who wanted an evil campaign. I've heard horror stories where a DM didn't like the way things were going, so he brought in for example Elminster to nuke the party. :(

    3) Way too many gods. Different racial gods having claims over the same portfolio. Gods from different continental pantheons having claims over the same portfolio (e.g. Maztica, Kara-Tur, Mulhorand) What some people would think could constitute a single portfolio often gets reduced to multiple portfolios through hair splitting (agricultural nature for Chauntea, wild nature for Silvanus, calm pools for Eldath, forests and hunting for Meilikki, War for Tempus, battle and strategies for the Red Knight, berserking for Gargauth, and so on). WotC decided to cull things down considerably.

    4) The history of the FR is labyrinthine to put things mildly, and this was perceived as a stumbling block for guys who just wanted to sit down and start playing, hence the release of the Grand History of the Realms (a reference point that can be viewed at leisure) and the subsequent release of the FR 4e books as you see them.

    Personally, assuming that I ever had time, I would be open to playing a 3.5 campaign in FR and pretend that 4e never happened. But on a certain level, I can certainly understand why they did what they did.
     
  7. Rawgrim Gems: 21/31
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    I agree completely with you about the chosen. There are plenty of games I have been involved with, where the players haven`t dared to do anything "evil" in certain areas, because of the fear of being nuked by one of the chosen. However, they are also a nice carrot for an epic evil character. I remember one of the players actually sought out one of the seven sisters, and managed to kill her, in one campaign. All hell broke loose after that though....
     
  8. The Shaman Gems: 28/31
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    I think the 4E FR was a spinoff of the "original", rather than a sequel, so to say. I didn't get most of the trouble people said they had with 3E - as far as I know Mystra was lenient enough to allow even Cyric, her nemesis, access to the Weave. Same for all, or at least most, of the threats to the Chosen - the majority of whom are wizards. So what does it matter how powerful Mystra is if she, apart from sometimes bailing her Chosen out, doesn't really do much?

    As for the Chosen, I kinda like them. They are epic or nearly so, so sure, they are badass. However, their perceived uber powers are mostly just that - perceived; they are protagonists in more novels than their opponents (and, as protagonists, they tend to triumph), so they get more screentime. The Realms doesn't have a colorful collection of uber epic evil NPCs that are imo even stronger - Larloch, the Creeping Doom (epid wizard who is also a great wyrm dracolich), that bloated-fat Netherese lich from Champions of Ruin, etc. It's imo more difficult for a good PC to survive and thrive in Thay than for an evil one in the Dales.

    Just my 2 CPs. I intend to play 3.5 or Pathfinder, anyway.
     
  9. Rawgrim Gems: 21/31
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    Having those NPCs in the setting though, isn`t a bad thing. Its up to the DM and the players if they want to use them in a campaign. So removing them, as they have done in the new edition, just makes the setting smaller, in a way. Same goes for all the gods. It wasn`t complicated at all having lots of them there. Its only complicated if its made to be complicated, by the people playing. Lots of gods meant lots of different cleric options. And thats a good thing. The FR seems alot "smaller" now, and alot more black and white.

    I remember when the Drizzt books came out. A drow being good, and being a ranger, was unique. Drizzt was a complete "oddball" in terms of race. The drow race in general was very "urban", I might say. With clerics ruling, wizards supporting (and plotting), and fighters being the army of a city. Now, since aparantly every fanboy wants to create a Drizzt-clone, they change the race completely. Making the drow race favor the ranger class. Its turning the entire race upside-down. No explanation for this is given in the books either. Its just the way the race is. If you are playing a drow, you should be playing a drizzt-clone (it pretty much says that under the racial description in the book as well. Not kidding here).
     
  10. Gnarfflinger

    Gnarfflinger Wiseguy in Training

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    One thing I notices in the FRCS is that the NPC's don't have stats or levels. It's done so that they can be drawn up to the power level you want them to be. Meaning that if you want your party to slap Elminster around, you can make him a tool and turn the party loose on him...
     
  11. martaug Gems: 23/31
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    Yep instead of drow favored class being ranger, rogue & warlock, it should have been cleric, rogue & warlock IMHO.
     
  12. Rawgrim Gems: 21/31
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    Cleric for females. Wizard or fighter for males. The male drow who doesn`t show atalent form magic, gets "disgarded" as fighters. And are more or less used as cannon-fodder. Where the warlock idea comes from, I have no idea. There was never any mention of drow warlocks in any of the previous editions.
     
  13. The Shaman Gems: 28/31
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    While they'd technically be classified as warriors, imo many drow - especially male ones - would most likely have at least a few levels of rogue. Dirty fighting, awareness, stealth and other staples of the rogue class are necessary (and all but omnipresent) in drow society, especially for males. Given how favored class operates (easier multiclassing), it should be reserved for those skill sets most members of a race tend to have at least some proficiency in.

    There was iirc no warlock class before Complete Arcane, so there would not be any mentions of them, at least with such a class (kind of like how the Symbul was a wizard in 2e) . Mind you, drow clerics had plenty of truck with demons... maybe even their mages might have done some demon-binding, although I doubt that the church of Lloth looked kindly upon such acts.
     
  14. Rawgrim Gems: 21/31
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    Clerics having contact with demons and such are usually through the Gate spell, and such. All clerics can sumon demons i think. As for the dirty fighting: you don\t have to use sneak-attack to fight dirty. A simple attack against someones back, or flanking etc, would do the trick. also the dirty fighting feat, could be used for that. High dex and light armour 8such as elven chainmail), would also make them decent sneakers. Awereness is covered by the +2 spot and listen racial ability, wich is exactly the same bonus the Awereness feat grants you.

    But anyway, making the Warlord be a favored class for the drow doesn`t make sense in any case. I guess we could try and justify it here and there, but it still a longshot.
     
  15. martaug Gems: 23/31
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    Well Rawgrim remember that they aren't favored classes as such, just general guidelins as to what the race as a whole tends to due.

    Shaman "multi-classing" is now done via feats(in case you didn't know) so no need for "favored class" as we used to have. Also you can dabble in a second class but not a third.
    A fighter taking the Sneak of Shadows Feat gets the theivery skill & can use sneak attack 1/encounter.
    After that you can burn as many as 3 feats getting powers fron your new class
    Novice - swap an encounter power
    Acolyte - swap a utlity power
    Adept - swap a daily power
     
  16. Rawgrim Gems: 21/31
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    Sneak attack 1 time per encounter? That doesn`t make sense at all. If you know how to sneak attack, you know how to do it. If you know how to stab where it hurts, you should be able to do it whenever you can. Does the fighter just forget how to do it, after 1 stab?
     
  17. The Magister Gems: 26/31
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    The drow were actually corrupted by Lolth through use of a powerful Balor named Wedonai so they do have some demonic blood in them. It makes seance they have some aptitude for demonic power.
     
  18. martaug Gems: 23/31
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    Well the rogue can use it 1/round if :
    1) He has combat advantage against a foe(foe is engaged by multiple enemies, stunned, distracted)

    2) Is equipped with a weapon from one of the 3 following groups:
    Light Blade: Dagger, Short Sword, Katar, Rapier, Sickle & Shuriken
    Crossbow: Regular(no lt & hvy anymore) & Hand
    Sling

    From lvls 1-10 it does +2d6, 11-20 +3d6 & 21-30 +4d6
    It's kind of funny that a rogue can do a sneak attack from 15 squares away at +2 & up to 30 squares away(with a crossbow) at an even attack roll(+2 from CA & -2 from long range). Can we say SNIPER!!(but no bows)

    Since a full fledged rogue can only use it 1/rd the next step up(or down as it is) is an encounter power so that is what you get as a Ft, Cl, Pal, etc that takes the feat.
     
  19. Rawgrim Gems: 21/31
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    The logic of it still escapes me.
     
  20. Gnarfflinger

    Gnarfflinger Wiseguy in Training

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    I think with all the races in 4e, the "favoured classes" are simply ones where the race's adjustments and abilities mesh favourably with the class. This is suggested for the benefit of players that want to make a character quickly and get rolling.

    For example, the Dwarf with the Con bonus and resistance to forced movement they are protrayed as defenders (fighter and Paladin), and the Wisdom bonus makes them effective Clerics as well. What is not mentioned in the PHB, but I have heard of on the WotC forums is that Dwarves do well as Warlocks as well because of the Con bonus.

    Looking at the Drow, I believe they get Dex and Charisma bonus as well as a choice of two racial encounter powers. The Stat bonus makes them effective as Rogues, Rangers (with a bow, which is odd because You Know Who is always portrayed with two scimitars), Some Warlock pacts, the Inspiring Warlord and a Charisma based Paladin. The Designers would play that up over the "traditional fluff" I guess.

    Also, to expand on Martaug's comments about Rogues, the Sneak Attack can only be added once per round, but you can wait until you hit to apply the damage. I also advocate the Backstabber feat to Rogues to change those d6 to a d8...
     
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