Favourite weapon style

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While 'To Hit' and 'Damage' are important factors with weapons, most every weapon category has +4/+5 weapons - What makes a weapon stand out to me is its additional effects.

When i think uber-weapons in bg2 i look to those that can have a crippling effect on the enemy and/or give a huge boost to the wielder.
Soul Reaver - cumulative -2 to enemy thaco on hit (no save).
Silver Sword - chance to insta-kill non-bosses (no save).
Ravager - chance to insta-kill non-bosses (allows save)
Staff of the magi - huge defensive bonuses to mages.
Staff of the woodlands - huge defensive bonuses to druids.
Holy Avenger - huge defensive bonuses to paladins and awesome damage.
The Answerer - cumulative -2ac & -10%mr on hit (no save).
Flail of ages - 5to33% chance to slow enemy (no save), elemental damage.
Crom Fayer - constant 25str
Belm - +1 attack per round.

Almost all of them are 2handed, sure there are more weapons out there with nice effects but they allow saves and are generally less useful in my opinion (especially if you use difficulty increasing mods).

 

From the short swords family Kundane has a hidden +1 attack per round. The short sword of mask has an irresistible entangle effect (forgot if it granted a save). Arbane's Sword has a permanent freedom of movement effect (includes stuns and psionics) yet allows you to be hasted. Llbratha allows warriors to use Mirror Image.

Weapons like these are what makes dual-wielding so powerful.

 

Depends I guess, I really like the 2 handers for most classes for sure. But I like the stat versatility dual wielding gives you as well. (Especially since I usually play with a F/M in my party, although 2 handers work lovely for them as well)

 

Single weapon! - Lower damage than two handed and dual wield and lower ac than with shield. Hmm, not really worth it.

Sword and shield, to also protect myself. - When out of ideas, take this. My berserker/cleric has this.

Dual wielding. Twice as good. - Just looks stylish. My half-orc barbarian has this.

Ranged weapons. - Only for a archer or a fighter/thief combination. Otherwise, melee is way more effective.

Two handed weapons for me! - Well, not for me. For Korgan. But only if you get the iwd2 weapons mod. How does "Massive Greataxe of Flame (+5)" sound? Carsomyr, go hide under a pillow, the dwarf has some gut-spilling to do.

 

Single weapon style is excellent for a pure thief. With only one proficiency point it decreases AC by one and doubles the chance of a critical hit. It's a must take for all non-fighter thieves except swashbuckler (unless you add a mod which allows thieves to have more than one * in a weapon style). I believe if you use a shield the AC bonus goes away but you still get the higher chance of a critical hit -- hence, one * in single weapon and * in sword and shield is great for a cleric or druid with no fighter levels.

Two weapon style is only reasonable if you take ** in it -- one proficiency point is useless. You really need to put *** in two weapon style which makes the style viable only for warriors, swashbucklers, and blades.

Two-handed weapon style is excellent. The best weapons are two handed and this style really allows a character to wield them well. It is also very good for mages.

 

My favorite weapon style would have to be… all of the above! Since that isn't an option, I didn't vote. I am happiest when my party consists of one dedicated archer (usually the archer kit, in fact), 1 2-hander (usually a paladin wielding the Holy Avenger), 2 sword&board characters and 2 dual wielders.

I have varied on this formula quite a bit over my many play-throughs, but in my mind, the above is the ideal. I am also quite partial to a lawful good party that includes Keldorn, Anomen, and I like to roleplay that my protagonist also becomes an honorary squire of The Order of the Most Radiant heart… this happens when I get the paladin stronghold (due to multiple strongholds mod being installed). My PC is almost never a paladin, but I figure that the Order would welcome an archer, wizard/fighter or cleric (whatever class I happen to be) who is as dedicated to the cause of righteousness as my PC usually is! I almost always bring along Minsc and Jaheira (with alignment changed to neutral good) as well, as I view them as integral companions to the PC, and I happen to enjoy their company.

When I have the above weapon configuration and a super-duper-goody-two-shoes party, my BG2 run-throughs tend to be supremely enjoyable.

 

Well since I play mages most of the time, weapon style is not a question for me.

But, I just love to use dual wielding for my MP created fighter, and I especially like this combo:Belm+2 for the offhand, and use a weapon with true GM for the main hand. True GM gives +1 attack, Belm offers +1 for being offhand, and a further +1 attack for the main hand due to its special. +1 attack comes from being a high level fighter. That's...5 attacks/round without haste or anything.

Now I add Improved Haste. And that's 10 attacks/round:it's like GWW attack on always! And then I can add other HLAs, like critical strike or better yet, smite, with constant 10 attacks/round:sick, brutal, and fun!

 

Another reason why the single weapon style is best for mage-thieves, pure thieves and thief kits is because having an off-hand weapon interferes with backstab.

 

Mage/Thieves should be dual wielding, they can cast Mislead which is Assassination except not stuck at a once per rest limit and a longer duration. Dual Wield the Scarlet and you get another Backstab attempt with your main hand weapon. Even with all the THAC0 penalties that dual wielding gives, with all those attacks you're bound to hit at least once

And a normal thief Thief can be wield the Staff of the Ram+6 which is the best backstabbing weapon in the game in terms of output, short of a Kai boosted Black Blade of Disaster in the hands of a Kensai/Thief. Except, that requires a ridiculous amount of setup.

Unless you have an abundance of backstabbers, Single Weapon Style isn't always the best way to go.

 

Black Blade of Disaster is also an alternative but if you have to put it that way, then whether you're dual-wielding or not doesn't really matter since the target should end up dead regardless.
Unless it has True sight or is immune to backstab, in which case (depending on its AC) single weapon style can come in handy. Should you be forced to fight, of course.

And the thief will be using what until he gets the staff? Not to mention there are lots of better one-hand weapons for non-backstab fighting. The staff is the most useful for backstabbing, but if the enemy is immune to backstab then you're back to square one.

In any case it's best for mage-thieves/single class thieves take single weapon style (best all around) and then take dual/two-handed style later (situational/requires a particular spell or weapon to function) instead of the other way round.

You can't backstab with the Scarlet. Belm or Kundane are better alternatives, where applicable. Most enemies immune to Belm or Kundane should also be immune to Scarlet though.

Anyway if it all comes down to ultimate powergaming single weapon style will still be best. You actually mentioned the Black Blade of Disaster. Now take Wild Mage, cast Black Blade of Disaster and keep casting/reload until you get the AoE effect. Then save and repeat for Mislead.

 

From the buyable staves?

Staff Mace+2 (granted this benefits from the Single Weapon/Sword and Shield Style instead of the Two Handed Style, at least it's a Staff which means you don't need to pick another proficiency while waiting for enough money for the...)
Staff of Ryn+4

Those two weapons are in Waukeen's Promenade. With all the money quests the game gives you and the instant 18 Charisma discount (20 really since there's a Friends Spell for sale there too), wouldn't be too hard to imagine that a Thief would have the Ryn by Chapter 3, unless you speed your way to it.

Even then you'll still pick up a good amount of cash along the way.

As for Mage/Thieves since they're really bad fighters, I mean seriously 1 Attack Per Round base. I can't imagine using them on the front lines other than Mislead/Assassination Backstab. They're more effective with Bows for the extra +1 APR plus the range factor synths quite well with their spell casting and trap laying abilities. If you really want STR bonuses then go for Everard's Sling.

That the Scarlet can't backstab isn't the issue here. That it grants one additional attack to the main hand is. While sure the Belm and Kundane would work. Why you would want to waste those two awesome picks for off hand weapons on a Mage/Thief is a bit beyond me, unless you're out of Fighters then sure go ahead.

But aside from that, at least no one will be wanting to wield the Scarlet unless you have a Fighter/Thief as well.

I mean sure if you want to get the most out of backstabbing when dual wielding go ahead and equip the Belm/Kundane, but even then I'd just use a Staff of the Ram+6 instead of whatever weapon you combine with the Belm or Kundane.

 

I guess if you max pickpockets you can even steal enough to get the Staff of Rhynn early, but I mostly prefer Daystar since it's a good early game weapon for thieves all around.

Mage-Thieves are really good casters though.

Because with dual wielding, the off-hand has to attack at least once per round. Scarlet will do that, with no backstab damage.

 

The reason I give the Scarlet to a Dual Wielding Thief is because I'd rather give the Belm and Kundane to anyone who can wield it and is a Fighter Class. Because only a Thief can wield the Scarlet (well a Monk too but yeah as if he can use it well at the point HLA's are flying around)

If the Mage/Thief or Pure Thief wields the Belm/Kundane then you only have 1 Fighter with an extra attack.

If the Mage/Thief or Pure Thief wields the Scarlet then you can have 2 Fighters with an extra attack.

If you're already out of Fighters in your party and still have one of the two weapons left over then yes, I can see either the Belm or Kundane handed out to the Thief or Mage/Thief.

Even after all of that, if I still have the Staff of Ram+6 to hand out then I'd still pick that over whatever weapon+Belm/Kundane.

The Scarlet may not be the best choice for the 2 weapon Thief it is however the best choice for a party that has a lot of 2 weapon Fighters.

Of course Mage/Thieves are excellent casters. Anything that isn't a triple classed Mage or one in one of the bad schools, are just as good a caster as any. Which is why it makes sense that Mage/Thieves use Bows instead of melee weapons when not backstabbing or laying traps or casting spells.

 

I usually don't give fighters extra attacks because they get Whirlwind.

As you have said, melee fighting can be circumstantial for a mage-thief, which is why the dual-wielding or two-handed weapon proficiencies are also circumstantial. That's all I'm trying to point out.
So yeah I'd pick something like Daystar over the Staff of the Ram as my normal weapon but I 'd certainly use the staff or some dual-wield combo if I had to backstab something. I'd only take dual-wield/two-handed as my main proficiencies if my character was soloing.

 

Fighters also have Critical Strike.

Improved Whirlwind only sets your ApR to 10. All with a chance to Hit and Miss and only a 1/20 chance to Crit

Meaning Improved Haste is useless.

On the other hand Improved Haste can also set your attacks to 10 with the right equipment (including the usage of the Belm or Kundane), and still be used with Critical Strike to effectively give you a 95% Hit and Crit Rate (IIRC Critical Misses will still register) Critical Strike practically sets your attacks to 20, 19 if you factor in the 5% chance to miss.

Hell even Critical Strike alone is comparable to Improved Whirlwind, because Critical Strike will not miss except on a Critical Miss, Improved Whirlwind still has to do a hit roll. Improved Haste + Critical Strike just kicks it into nonexistence.

And should you factor in the enemies immune to Critical Hits, Critical Strike + Improved Haste still has a better hit rate thanks to the auto 20 on everything except a Critical Miss.

One more thing,

The Day Star only deals double damage to Undead and only Undead. Meaning it's even more situational. The Staff of Rynn has better damage potential, it protects the Thief by sending him behind the front line (thanks to the extra Staff Range)

Sine Mage/Thieves and Thieves do not have multiple ApRs, that makes the Day Stay even less effective. Seeing as it only turns your attack rate to 2 against undead (since you deal twice the damage on your single attack) Bows automatically give 2 ApR.

In fact Bows make for better weapons than the Staff of Rynn, except you can backstab with the Staff.

So all that combined the only undead that the Day Star would be better on over the Staff + Bow combination is Skeletons since they're practically immune to piercing damage and the Day Star deals double damage on them while the Staff of Rynn doesn't. If you want to call something situational, the Day Star in the hands of a Mage/Thief or Pure Thief is the perfect example. Not to mention you're wasting a weapon that simulates doubling the ApR on Undead by giving it to a class that only has 1 APR Fighters switching to the Day Star will massacre undead enemies thanks to their multiple ApR (plus THAC0 and how Fighters will naturally have STR bonuses)

 

Dual wield for me. It's just cooler when there's two.

 

Yes, but unfortunately:
a) Powerful bosses are usually immune to Belm/Kundane
b) Two-handed Weapon damage is far superior to a single weapon's
c) There are ways to bolster +hit rolls to ridiculous values

Granted, dual-wield has its merits when you're saving your spells/HLA's for the big boss.

I thought you were only gonna send your thief-mage to the front sparingly?
In case you didn't know, Daystar has Sunray. Now which character do you think is in the perfect position to sneak in the middle of a room of undead and cast Sunray while protected against level drain, high level spells, hold attacks? M/T.
The bonus damage to undead is also nice to have against undead like Liches who, as you may know, are immune to low level spells. Many types of undead also have resistances to common forms of magical damage. So since you can kill even a dragon with Magic Missile as long as you lower its magic resistances enough, but you can't do the same against powerful undead (forcing you to expend your high level spells), which situational item do you think should a mage-thief use? Bingo.
Warriors already have the Mace of Disruption and Azure Edge.

 

I'm glad you pointed all of that out.

-Pure Thieves, Thief/Mages are horrible front line fighters, 1 ApR, very low AC for the Thief, and even if the Thief/Mage can solve AC problems with Mirror Image and Stoneskin, why bother? As you've pointed out, Thief/Mages are excellent Casters
-As you've pointed out Fighters have weapons that can instantly destroy undead. Why even bring a Thief in, who'll probably die and contribute so little. At least if you bring the Thief in with the Staff of Ryn, he can attack from behind the Fighters. So even if he contributes so little to the battle, he won't be a liability like the Thief who's fighting toe to toe with an undead who'll probably hit him and send his small HP pool lower.
-As you've pointed out the the Day Star has Sunray, which doesn't need a proficiency in either Single Weapon Style or Long Swords to use.
-The Staff of Ryn has better damage than the Day Star on anything that isn't undead.

So why again should a Thief get Single Weapon Proficiency? So far all I see is a Thief using a "Single Weapon" in a way that doesn't involve proficiencies.

And I find it funny that you actually consider using the Day Star to fight Liches on a Mage/Thief. When MMM is a way, way better option. Better THAC0, fires like a machine gun (Spell Casting Failure) as opposed to a Mage/Thief slowly swinging around his 1 ApR weapon that a Lich can probably get off a spell or two.

With enough spell slots, a Mage/Thief can go one on one with a Lich giggling all the way as the Lich tries to get a spell off. But the Day Star? The 1 ApR Day Star?

Saving HLA's? Why would you want to save HLA's? Expend High Level Spells? You talk as if using a high level spell is going to destroy your game. In fact a Thief/Mage shouldn't even be concerned with weapons other than backstabbing. They shouldn't even be backstabbing in the first place.

That's what the Rest Button and Wish is for.

Critical Strike ends battles with lots of enemies quickly, you don't even need to buff your Fighters, just activate Critical Strike and then have them wade across mobs.

Also you're only considering big boss battles? Why even bother with those? Anyone prepared can end those in a minute or two no matter what weapon you use. The numerous encounters in the game are dealt with faster with Critical Strike, no need to buff your fighters to combat enemy AC. In fact thanks to Critical Strike you don't even need to take proficiencies in Two Handed Weapons and Two Handed Weapon Style, just wield the weapon, activate Critical Strike, you're using it like a pro.

The time you spend not buffing for To Hit bonuses is time the Fighter is already at the front with Critical Strike using whatever Two Handed Weapon you gave him.

As opposed to Greater Whirlwind, you can't use that to make a Two Handed Fighter into a Dual Wielder.

Actually wait, what are these many To Hit improving spells are you talking? Don't tell me you're going to use Glitterdust on a Big Boss who'll probably save against it.

 

Obviously because magic is not always superior to raw power?

You too presume to much. Whoever said anything about a Rogue fighting toe-to-toe with undead?

So? You don't need proficiency points in either Two-Handed Weapon Style or Staff to use the Staff of Rhynn either. You need them to attack properly with your weapon.

Unfortunately "anything that isn't undead" is already covered. Read last post.

Because the answer has been staring at you from between the lines for some 5 or so posts now. You want the short list?
Single Weapon weapon advantage: + AC, better THAC0 than dual-wield, + critical, better utility/enchantments against two-handers (Sunray; bonus-damage against undead; + effects on hit like entangle/stun; immunities against level drain, confusion, slow, stun etc.; stat drain).

Gee, I dunno. Because 1 Sunray + a few hits from Daystar, made possible via Hide the in Shadows + Cloak of Non-detection (immune to True Sight) can kill a lich in like 10 or so seconds I guess. No hassle, no spell use, no HLA's.
You're welcome to your own play-style though. I guess if using HLA's and Pierce Magic+Dispell Magic+Timestop etc. against such things makes you happy...

You are contradicting yourself.

You do realize that any other tactic works just as well against "normal" enemies.

There's more than one way to end encounters fast.
You exaggerate. You make it sound as if your fighters are somehow immune to stuns and enchantments, that you get start the game with lots of Critical Strike HLA's and that your warriors are not taking damage.

Normal battles: Why do you need to hit bonuses?
Boss battles: You exaggerate.

Easy answer: Enhanced Bard Song x1, x2, x3... Each adds +4 to hit.
Welcome to Bardic Territory.

 

Bard Cheese makes me giggle. Of all the cheese options in the game, you pick the worst one.

Just off the top of my head there's

Trap Cheese (which by the way Bards can also do)
Wizard/Sorcerer Wish/Project Image Cheese

If you're going to cheese, Projecting Bards just to boost your weapon swings is a pretty pathetic option. Go massacre stuff with Spike Traps instead. Enchanced Bard Song, really way better HLA picks out there if you're going to cheese it. And seriously Project Image and Chain Contingency just to hold a cheese concert? Way to be unoptimal.

"Bardic Territory" has always been a joke in BG2, anything the Bard can do, you can always find someone to do it way better. That includes cheese.

Did the game suddenly update itself? Because last I checked the Day Star Sun Ray was a weapon ability Not something that requires you to swing the weapon. Weapon Abilities only require one thing, that is that you can hold the weapon. Put the Day Star in a quick weapon slot, go out of the inventory screen, select Use Item, click the Day Star Icon, point target, presto! Instant Sun Ray. Requires 0 Proficiencies in Long Sword or Single Weapon Style.

Oh and again MMM owns Liches. Why bother even going through all the trouble of Hiding when a Thief/Mage can boldly step infront of a Lich and pelt it with MMMs is hilarious. Especially if the Lich happens to make it's save and the Thief/Mage with it's horrible 1 ApR and horrible THAC0 misses and the Lich happens to get off a spell.

Last I checked Two Handed Weapon Style also improved Criticals, improved damage, and Quarterstaves have a pretty long range that you can hit stuff while standing behind a Fighter (guess what won't matter if you do that, that's right AC! AC bonuses make Quarterstaff Thieves laugh)

So again what are the advantages of Single Weapon Style that it's the best pick for Thieves? So far all you've given is "Day Star: Use Ability" which has nothing to do with proficiencies and some way to kill Liches which involves a lot more "rolls that better work or else" than MMM barrage. You might as well just use Sunray and Power Word: Reload to kill Liches, far more efficient than "Gosh I hope my Mage/Thief with 1 ApR hits the Lich!"

Oh wait I completely forgot, Bards can't even cast Project Image. So you're going to waste the Sim Helm on a Bard just so he can sing. Wow, seriously, wow. I'm just left speechless. Wow. Way to use the Helm of V.