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Favorite Class/kit?

Discussion in 'Baldur's Gate: Enhanced Edition' started by RPGesus, Oct 18, 2016.

  1. henkie

    henkie Hammertime Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    I wondered who Chucky was, and I've read a fair few of the discworld books. Never knew there was discworld game, either.

    I wouldn't say the jester is misunderstood, it's just that the effects are not that great. At first it's just confusion, and that might help, or it might hinder. The slow effect is more useful, but at that stage (lvl 15), I'd call it a toss if it's more useful than just letting him pelt arrows for a round instead. And the HLA song negates any difference the jester may have (that's more of a gripe with the HLA than the kit(s), though).
     
  2. xosmi Gems: 20/31
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    From previous online discussions regarding the kit i've always gotten the feeling that most people feel like CHARNAME should be some big badass dude in the frontlines, doing the most damage out of everyone and looking cool while doing so.
    This automatically makes the jester undesirable (regardless of the effectiveness of the song) since it is in essence a support kit.
    I'll agree with you that the jester song in it's current state is a bit lackluster and could have been a lot better, but in and of itself it does not make a bard 'useless' at all.
    There only being one HLA for bards, overwriting their song regardless of kit is a huge oversight as well - this would have been a great spot to buff up the jesters song as well if they had given each kit their own improved bard song. Alas, it simply wasn't meant to be i guess.
     
  3. Paracelsi

    Paracelsi ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Jester are so-so without mods. They're not exactly weak (its hard to call anything with stealing/access to arcane spells, wands and most weapons weak) but they don't stand out.

    They're a lot stronger in modded games though because the Jester's song ignores magical protections and the only defense against it is outright immunity. Humanoids are particularly susceptible (vulnerable to confusion and sleep, the last effect at level 20). The slow is a bonus.
    If your character needs to do something else just use Mislead and let that image sing for you.
     
  4. xosmi Gems: 20/31
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    If all else fails there's still the lightning wand trick that allows you to cast 6 clones and stack songs :p
     
  5. Paracelsi

    Paracelsi ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Nothing wrong with an image or two, but given the summon cap there's a lot more useful things you can conjure up than 6 images.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2016
  6. RPGesus Gems: 1/31
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    As stated the Jester doesn't necessarily suck, and it doesn't really matter because it is after all your favorite kit. :)

    I personally like to think any class/kit/archetype is viable but I know there are more mechanically sound options out there. I've noticed people try and use different stuff that caters to what they like
     
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    While people will naturally gravitate to the classes that offer them the playstyle they like, i have noticed that the infinity engine games generally favor those that can do a bit of everything, dual/multiclass characters can get really powerful in particular.

    This is true doubly so when playing a solo game - combining fighter with caster capabilities really helps in giving you multiple handles on how to tackle combat, while combining either with thieving levels will allow you to loot and pickpocket a ton of goodies as well as avoid traps without having to take along a 2nd party member.
     
  8. RPGesus Gems: 1/31
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    You're very correct about multi classes being better. Utility is king in BG esp if you can cast spells.
    Still love me some cavalier
     
  9. Paracelsi

    Paracelsi ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    It's usually the case in high magic worlds because of how powerful items are.

    It was when D&D decided to do away with the rule of 20s system (natural AC of 20, the way THAC0 works, stat caps at 25, class levels more or less balanced at level ~20, and so on) and made progression never-endingly linear (as in 3rd edition, where the point is to just keep stacking attribute points/attack bonuses/spell DCs/spellcasting levels/etc or you character will fall behind) that D&D PC games became all about specialization. It's also why prestige classes that grant you a ridiculous amount of utility at minimum cost (like how 1 level of Shadowdancer gives you Hide in Plain Sight in Neverwinter Nights) are considered incredibly powerful. From a powergaming perspective, outside of extreme specialization the game became all about finding the best "dippable" classes because they killed off versatility.

    I hate stat stacking in D&D 3E+. I don't understand how a character with an intelligence or wisdom of 30+ could fail so spectacularly at making good decisions when an NPC with only 10+ Int/Wis could somehow be more knowledgeable/resourceful. And don't even get me started on Charisma, there are characters with 30+ charisma in some games I'd rather attack after 30 seconds of interaction versus some random baby animal with the standard 10+ Cha, for example.

    It's why I really like the Pillars of Eternity system. If only combat was less clunky.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2016
  10. henkie

    henkie Hammertime Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    The NWN system allows for a lot more different builds, though not that many are actually very powerful. I don't know about 3e+, but the way it was implemented in NWN, it didn't matter that much how you built your character. The game wasn't too difficult, though the main point was to get the good items (high magic worlds, indeed), like the belts of damage reduction and a good ++ weapon to bypass the other's DR.

    Stackable stats never bothered me much, and, to be fair, CHA and INT didn't do much in BG either. Having an 18 CHA in BG didn't make much of a difference as compared to 3 CHA. A 3 INT / 3 WIS character could make much smarter decisions than a 20 INT / 20 WIS character in BG as well. Now if we're talking Fallout (1&2, that is), stats actually matter there. Getting a 3 INT char there will definitely give you a different gaming experience.
     
  11. Paracelsi

    Paracelsi ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Someone in reddit figured out that CHA actually plays an important role in whether your NPCs end up fighting or not. This explains why some people have never really seen NPCs come to blows - high CHA can significantly delay/lower the chances of a fight happening until you reach later chapters and then it won't matter anymore. The party leader's CHA also affects how long before NPCs start to panic as their HP decreases (the most obvious example is Khalid in BG1, who flees at low HP if your Charisma is not 15+).
    Finally, there's store prices but you can just use the Ring of Human Influence + Friends for that.

    Low INT/WIS does affect casters in BG2 although sorcerers got a pass for whatever reason. Regardless, the presence of Mindflayers in the game would make anyone think twice about running around with low INT.
    Finally there's no easy way to permanently reach 25 stats (deity stats) even with items. There's really only Crom Faeyr (and never allowing it to leave your main/offhand) and crafting it in the first place forces you to weigh your options.

    It's a completely different story in games like Neverwinter Nights where if your caster decides to ignore spellcasting DCs/spellcasting levels/attack bonus then you can potentially end up gimping your character. While it's true that you can still muddle along with subpar stats, the game becomes a LOT easier if you just stack the right stats. You can very easily shut down a lot of the enemies in the OC with spells if your primary casting attribute is high enough, for example, or kill them outright with high DC nukes and a high enough caster level to pierce spell resistance.
    Improving your character becomes all about stacking the right stats.
    It's very different from BG2 where stat stacking is limited anyway (not easy to do, there's a cap, leveling is mostly automatic, etc) and so you had to shift your focus into coming up with better strategies given what resources you have.

    Also, in Neverwinter Nights 1&2 even NPCs can reach deity stats (permanent, counting persistent item effects and spells which might as well have a duration of "until the next time you rest") and even higher(!) at epic levels and still act/behave/appear as if (in several cases) they have below 10 stats.
    It bothers me enough to affect immersion.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2016
  12. henkie

    henkie Hammertime Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    I don't think deity stats are the same in NWN, though. What then would be a dragon with 60 STR? Anyway, NPCs not behaving in line with what stats or whatever they have is not that unusual. Jaheira never acted like someone that was TN either.

    And it's entirely possible to gimp yourself in BG as well. Create a mage, give him 15 INT. It's fine initially, until you discover you can't memorise a lot of spells (though I think you can cast spells higher than your INT, which is definitely not possible in NWN).
     
  13. Paracelsi

    Paracelsi ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Deity stats in 3E are in the 30-40s AFAIK, with the most powerful deities probably having some 50-60s. Dragons are only supposed to have 30+, with the oldest dragons having a few 40s.

    Jaheira is fickle enough to be TN. She strikes as the type of TN who mostly just wants to gets her way. It just so happens that she lives in a cruel, evil world, so she has to do more "good" compensate. I can't imagine her settling down in fuzzy wuzzy "everything-is-awesome" world, I'm pretty sure she'd go nuts.
     
  14. henkie

    henkie Hammertime Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    The dragon shape shifting form (shifter / druid), has 48 STR, 36 DEX and 32 CON. Though most of my RDD builds end around 30-32 STR.

    An NPC (or indeed a PC) that would actually become smarter as the stats go up, would be some phenominal writing and scripting on the part of the devs, I'm not surprised that doesn't happen in a videogame. Frankly, if it would happen, it would appear quite odd, as the character development would appear quite unnaturally fast, if you ask me.

    Btw, I do have a half-orc F/Assassin in BG with a natural 25 STR (BG1 tomes, evil hell trial, that sort of thing). Most cleric type builds also end up with a natural 24 WIS.

    But PS:T, BG is not. Not in terms of how much impact stats have in gameplay, anyway.
     
  15. Son of Imoen Gems: 4/31
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    In the beginning of me playing Baldur's Gate, my favourite classes used to be Fighter-Mage and Blade. I could stare at tables and make notes for hours and hours, trying to decide if I'd go with a Fighter-Mage or a Blade.

    Right now, almost any class casting arcane magic is my favourite. Exceptions being the Wild Mage for it's unpredictability and Sorceror because it's boring: just sleep, no choosing which spells to cast beforehand.

    So there's not really one favourite class. Specialist mage, Cleric-Illusionist, Mage-Thief, Illusionist-Thief, Blade even Avenger with the Chromatic Orb, Web and Improved Invisibility among her druid spells. As long as I can pick arcane spells and use them to buff me or hurl at the enemy.
     
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    "Someone in reddit figured out that CHA actually plays an important role in whether your NPCs end up fighting or not. This explains why some people have never really seen NPCs come to blows - high CHA can significantly delay/lower the chances of a fight happening until you reach later chapters and then it won't matter anymore. The party leader's CHA also affects how long before NPCs start to panic as their HP decreases (the most obvious example is Khalid in BG1, who flees at low HP if your Charisma is not 15+).
    Finally, there's store prices but you can just use the Ring of Human Influence + Friends for that."

    i've suspected this for a awhile. Good for it to be confirmed. One dialog that ended up with Viconia and Keldorn fighting ended up with her apologizing when I played a character with 20+ CHA.
     
  17. Son of Imoen Gems: 4/31
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    That might explain why I never have seen character infighting or Khalid fleeing in my campaigns. As Charname is a figure charismatic enough to gather 5 people around him who risk life and limb for her or his goals, I always go for high CHA. CHA is no dumpstat for me (in fact, I'd rather have sub-optimum physical stats than a character that can't tell the front from the back of his trousers or always makes the worst decision - if she or he has low INT and WIS, how is Charname supposed to unravel the plot?).
     
  18. Sorvo

    Sorvo Where's the nearest pub? Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Veteran

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    Khalid flees when his hit points get too low. I don't think it has anything to do with charisma.
     
  19. henkie

    henkie Hammertime Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    Certainly, it would make sense if charname has a good CHA, not so sure about INT and WIS, there's not much in the plot that would require much of an intellectual leap of logic. Certainly not in BG2. And in BG there's Elminster to flat out tell you where to go next.
     
  20. xosmi Gems: 20/31
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    Also one would expect some of the companions like imoen/jaheira&halid to help CHARNAME on his way (if you take them along) even if he only has 3 intelligence. :clap:
     
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