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Faux Strikes Again

Discussion in 'Alley of Dangerous Angles' started by chevalier, Nov 19, 2007.

  1. chevalier

    chevalier Knight of Everfull Chalice ★ SPS Account Holder Veteran

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    Fox hasn't quite earned a reputation for being an impartial news source. Now it has delighted us with the following line a popular American sitcom aired by this network, said to a Polish-descended news reporter by a colleague at work:

    The bowling reference makes it pretty obvious the author of the dialogue knows nothing about what he's talking about, since we've never had a big bowling tradition, the preposterous claim is a proper bastard child of "Polish concentration camps".

    (In the meantime, here's some reaction in American Polish forums)

    Poland is the only country occupied by Germany in WW2 which didn't have a local pupper government collaborating with Germany. In September 1939 we battled alone for a whole month, including the part of it after 17th September when we were backstabbed by the Soviet Union. Our government retreated abroad, but a functional underground structure remained and provided active resistance (Polish undeground state, anyone?). Several hundred thousand soldiers thought in Polish armies - about six hundred thousand if taken together the Western and Eastern front, i.e. allied with the Allies or allied with the Rushkies. Yep, those Russian "allies" who had backstabbed us to no reaction of our French, English and other allies. I don't need to mention Arnhem, Monte Cassino, the liberation of Belgium, Holland and Italy (Here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here I can go on...). Not like we weren't in Libya or Norway or heck, even Iran and Iraq. Do I?

    Even when we launched the Warsaw Uprising, the Allies took sweet time to recognise our Home Army as allies, preventing them from being treated like common criminals. Admittedly we got some help from air drops (rest in peace, airmen who helped us), no one cared about Stalin waiting at the river and blocking the Polish guerilla troops assembling from the whole country to help Warsaw (Operation Tempest), let alone himself not helping any.

    No one did anything (significant) when they were butchering our soldiers and officers and policemen and civil officers and teachers and artists and intellectuals and businessmen and whomever they could get, raping countless women and sending men (and women and children) off to lagers deep in Russia.

    The Allies chose to sell us to Stalin at Yalta, after conveniently ceasing to recognise an allied government which had done more than de Gaulle's French government did, having more legitimacy than de Gaulle's government could dream of (ours was constitutionally the same government as before the war). This includes the American allies. And some retarded writer from Fox News is spreading this slander.

    Learn history, noob. Before you write anything. How do those guys finish university and get a degree? Journalists and script authors should be made accountable for spreading such ignorant lies.

    Further read:

    Polish contribution to World War II

    Polish resistance movement in World War II

    Polish armies in World War II

    Polish Armed Forces in the West

    Polish intelligence service (kudos for usurping our credit for decyphering Enigma)

    Polish culture during World War II

    Polish Air Forces in France and Great Britain (somehow the memory of Polish Air Forces and Polish airmen of the British RAF proved extremely short-lived)

    Invasion of Poland

    Polish September (1939) Campaign (a category of links)
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2007
  2. Death Rabbit

    Death Rabbit Straight, no chaser Adored Veteran Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Chev - what are you talking about? Who are you saying it to?

    :confused:
     
  3. Morgoroth

    Morgoroth Just because I happen to have tentacles, it doesn'

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    Considering that it was a sitcom and sitcoms are supposed to be humorous I suppose that one was meant to be some kind of a joke to highlight the ignorance of the one who said it. While the history lesson you gave us is quite interesting I'm with DR here, what are you trying to say and to whom?
     
  4. chevalier

    chevalier Knight of Everfull Chalice ★ SPS Account Holder Veteran

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    Obviously you see the first paragraph of the opening post, don't you? That's pretty much as clear as it can be IMHO. In this thread I'm once again addressing the problem of false information spread by either liars or ignorant people, at the cost of historical accuracy and truth itself, as well as a slander to a nation the least deserving it.
     
  5. Dalveen

    Dalveen Rimmer gone Bald Veteran

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    Could you be a little bit more specific with the program and/or the actual person who said it, and also, was the quote actually meant to be taken seriously, or was it made as a joke? I know here in the UK, as a joke, people associate Polish folk with Plumbers... Not heroic WW2 underground freedom fighters.
     
  6. Morgoroth

    Morgoroth Just because I happen to have tentacles, it doesn'

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    Indeed I do. However we're talking about a sitcom here and I can't help but to think that you're overreacting quite a bit. I haven't seen this sitcom so I can't know exactly what that line is supposed to mean but I find it likely to be there to highlight the ignorance of the character that sais it. If that is the case then obviously the stuff he says is complete bs and not to be taken seriously. Now you could argue that the joke is of poor taste which I might agree to since it has obviously upset quite a few Poles but accusations of spreading lies is exaggerating it quite a bit in my opinion.

    I have never really seen anyone who thought that Poles were somehow actively collaborating with the Nazis, even the of the most ignorant people know that Nazis in fact invaded Poland which sort of eliminates collaboration from the picture. Is there really anyone around talking seriously about Polish concentration camps other than making an error when in fact trying talk about Nazi concentration camps in Poland?

    Also I think you are pushing a bit too much blame on the allies for what happend to Poland at later stages of the war and after it. What would you have expected them to do? Declare war on the Soviet Union and start WWIII? That would hardly have ended very well. The realpolitical situation were that the lands occupied by the Soviet Union ended up behind the Iron Curtain, not much the allies could have done about it anyhow.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2007
  7. T2Bruno

    T2Bruno The only source of knowledge is experience Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    The sitcom is Back to You -- the new Kelsey Grammer and Patricia Heaton series.

    For those who don't watch it, the sportscaster is very much typecast as the typical ignorant jock -- he opens his mouth and inserts his foot often, constantly dismaying others with his ignorance.

    Chev -- in America, the Polish-Americans have a strong tradition as hard working, hard playing, blue collar men and women (blue collar meaning general laborers). Granted, this is a stereotype but a rather common one. Bowling is considered a blue collar past time here. When you see a polish guy in a sitcom (and often in a movie), they bowl. Although I've seen it in several sitcoms, the one that springs immediately to mind is 'Barney Miller.'

    The comment was meant to show the ignorance of the individual -- which is not that far off from many in America.

    Perhaps you can describe the Volkduetsche and Volksliste for us. I believe that is where most misconceptions start.
     
  8. chevalier

    chevalier Knight of Everfull Chalice ★ SPS Account Holder Veteran

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    Volksdeutche were people from various categories of Volksliste, which meant people qualified for some inclusion in the German races as opposed to eventual extermination. Generally if you had German ancestors you were lucky. However, this didn't meant it saved you if you didn't colaborate. Even Habsburg archdukes settled in Poland ended up in Nazi lagers! Volksdeutsche were universally hated and indeed a bitter tear in the eye of the patriotically minded. However, they were not so numerous and they were universally cast out. According to some information I've heard, some of those people used the benefits to help others, but normally, being a Volksdeutsch was being a miserable traitor, like one guy in the whole village colouring up a German ancestry and then speculating on food prices using the protection he got. This kind of stuff.
     
  9. The Shaman Gems: 28/31
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    I consider the joke moronic and insulting, but that's about it. I think you're preaching to the choir here, Chev - most of us do know elementary history to know that the Polish, by and large, could not be accused of being Nazi collaborators. BTW, wht is kielbasa?
     
  10. chevalier

    chevalier Knight of Everfull Chalice ★ SPS Account Holder Veteran

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    Our word for sausage.
     
  11. martaug Gems: 23/31
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    umm, not to tick you off further chevalier, however your opening line seems to indicate that this was said between two reporters on fox news channel not on a sitcom on the fox network. different channels, you know.
     
  12. Nakia

    Nakia The night is mine Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    Delicious. Serve Red Cabbage with apples as a side dish.

    The joke was in poor taste. Unfortunately in the USA all too many people have preconceived ideas of what different cultures/ethnic groups are like.

    The Irish are drunks, the Brits snobs, The Scots misers and dour, Italians Mafia and on and on.
     
  13. T2Bruno

    T2Bruno The only source of knowledge is experience Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Chev, were the Volksduetsche and Volksliste Polish citizens? There were nearly one million volksdeutsche and another million on the volksliste that were not volksdeutsche. That is a lot a traitors and collaborators -- and probably the reason for such generalities in jokes of poor taste.

    I think every country has distasteful parts of their history -- many of these are made into cruel and tactless jokes. It does not mean the people telling these joke believe such things are true.
     
  14. joacqin

    joacqin Confused Jerk Veteran

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    According to sit-coms Sweden is nothing but sex crazed young blonde women. I find that to be un true, I need to protest and educate the masses! Neither do we have polar bears walking the streets.

    Seriously Chev, I mean seriously. Protesting against a line in a sit-com?
     
  15. chevalier

    chevalier Knight of Everfull Chalice ★ SPS Account Holder Veteran

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    We had many people of actual German descent and you'll see that even now in the great numbers of last names which sound like polonised German names. Some were actual Germans who acted in favour of the Reich and against the Polish state, therefore hard to consider traitors even, just aliens. Some were people torn between the two nations. Some were agents of the Polish intelligence. Some were threatened by the Germans, along with their families - especially true about Silesians and Kashubians, i.e. inhabitants of regions considered German by the Germans (cf. the General Governorship - the main body of former Poland under German occupation - 120000 thousand Volksdeutsche, while we certainly had many more ethnically German Polish citizens than that number). And some were proper traitors acting out of economic or other motivations. The whole million you talk about were real ethnic Germans who remained ethnically separate from Poles - Group I and II, that is Germans acting in favour of the Reich before 1939 and Germans who remained passive. Polonised Germans were in groups III-IV, numbering up to 1.7M.

    Volksdeustch, Volkslist.

    I don't think the Volksdeutsche problem was a distasteful part of our history - after all, the lists were at least nominally only open to people of German descent and yes, we certainly had at least 3 million people with German roots. Some cooperated as Volksdeutsche for economic gain, though I doubt there were so many, some actually had a real German citizenship and passport and still decided to side with the Poles and rather go to concentration camps than cooperate with the Nazi. Some Poles of even strong German origins fought in the Polish army in September 1939. And once again, look at the 120K figure in the General Governorship, as opposed to the great numbers on former territories of Poland which were annexed to the Reich and various degrees of coercion were applied.

    It's one thing when people tell harmless jokes and even when idiots tell stupid jokes. But when they imply cooperation with the Nazi is in Polish blood, even as a joke, that's not merely just poor taste. That's the kind of idiocy that needs to be restrained before it does more serious harm.

    So for the sake of opposing such idiocy every while, I now contrast the idiotic superstition with some historical account, so that people can see.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 20, 2007
  16. The Great Snook Gems: 31/31
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    @chev,

    I think you are confusing two different networks. Fox is a rival network of ABC, NBC, and CBS and basically is just an entertainment station. They air "American Idol", "24", "House", and others.

    Fox news may be owned by the same people, but it isn't the same channel.
     
  17. Caradhras

    Caradhras I may be bad... but I feel gooood! Veteran

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    Although it's meant to be a "funny" line I can't help thinking that some people are bound to take it at face value and draw conclusions about Poles in general. Such anger on Chevalier's part is legitimate and IMHO it's a shame that these sort of offensive lines get aired in the first place.
     
  18. Enagonios Gems: 31/31
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    This is true T2, but I get where Chev is coming from here. I'm Filipino and recently there's been a lot of sniping being done at our expense on popular shows. The most recent iirc was on Desperate Housewives where one of the women (I don't watch the show) made a comment that belittled the level of medical education attained here.

    Now, I for one am not really bothered by this as I'm pretty arrogant myself and can acquit myself on a personal level on anyone making such a comment to me but what concerns me is the fact that these misconceptions will spread and be absorbed as fact by people who are too ignorant/lazy/stupid to know any better.

    Free speech, yes. Sense of humor, yes. Entertainment, yes. But lets not fool ourselves. Most of the people out there aren't as well-educated/well-informed as (dare I say it?) we are and shows as popular as these should take into consideration that when they make remarks like this they are helping spread demeaning and false stereotypes.
     
    Nakia likes this.
  19. chevalier

    chevalier Knight of Everfull Chalice ★ SPS Account Holder Veteran

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    Yeah... The character will still look like a dolt, but people will often register the situation as his pointing out something he should be quiet about, rather than accusing a nation the most militantly opposing the Nazis of supporting them. In the light of ever-present confusion of "Polish concentration camps" leading people to think the Poles must have had something to do with the camps (the majority of people who died there were ethnic Poles anyway), it's particularly potentially damaging.

    As for the war effort and the rest, I simply too the opportunity to present facts which are not normally taught in schools.
     
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  20. Oaz Gems: 29/31
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    You probably shouldn't watch The Office, either. Or, you know, any fictional sitcom with obnoxious fictional characters.
     
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