Evolution is a lie: Christian nuts get company of Muslim zealots

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Morgoth, you ascribe some pretty lousy behaviours to people who oppose all of the tenets of evolution. These people may not be "consistent" as you term it - I prefer to say that they are not "retarded". Being a person of faith does not mean that you have to act like an idiot or be a hypocrite.

What all of you anti-religious zealots seem to miss is that for hundreds of years religious people provided a great deal of the health care for populations. Your beliefs about the origin of the world are only tangentially relevant when it comes to treating a sickness in the here and now. I once again point out the number of religious people who are also successful and well respected physicians. Their very existance puts the boot to this assertion that religious people make substandard doctors. The proof is right in front of you.

 

Just an honest question. Wouldn't you be bothered in the slightest if a doctor revealed to you that the he believes that the sun orbits the earth, and that he ignores all evidence and reason only because it contradicts with his faith?

Edit:

Didn't the field of medicine make huge steps forward when they removed religion from the picture? You're apparently seeing a doctor as an organic Chinese room: he has a big book listing what to do for each group of symptoms, patients come in, he looks up what needs to be done, and he does it. No understanding required whatsoever and that's apparently convenient because he doesn't agree with why things are, he only needs to know what things are.

 

You posit that a lack of belief with all points of evolution invariably indicates that the doctor has NO understanding of things. That's ridiculous.

Look, even within the scientific community there is debate about specific points of evolutionary theory, just as in EVERY discipline there are debates about details. You argue that it's an all or nothing proposition.

It's possible to be a person of faith and not believe in a 7 day creative period. It's possible to understand biology, chemistry, anatomy and all the rest and still belive in God. As I have said, thousands of doctors do it every day.

As I have stated in other threads, I believe that religion should stay out of the science classroom, but I also believe that science should stay out of the religious classroom. I'd be pissed off too if a professor was saying "this evidence conclusively proves that there is no God!" in a science class. My response would be "hey, douchebag, if I'm not allowed to bring God up in this classroom, NEITHER ARE YOU!"

Make no mistake, these students causing trouble are just attention seeking pieces of crap -- I've taught in schools that are predominantly Muslim, and there are some real doozies out there, and I believe they should be shipped back to their countries of origin so they can cause trouble there. I have no trouble punishing them for their grandstanding stupidity.

The idea that being irreligious is a requirement of a good doctor or scientist is crap, however.

 

I'm just going to assume that when we are talking about evolution, we are talking about different things.

I'm not saying anything about the details. It's true that there are still debates, but on details on the level of: "what is evolutionary tree for gene X in these strains of E. Coli and how do we measure that?"

When you oppose all tenets of evolution then you are ignoring a fundamental part of biological reality. Evolution is a process that is observable, documented and is understood better than gravity. It has been observed countless of times. It has been documented countless of times. It is one of the most well researched, well understood phenomena. I'm not saying that religious people cannot be doctors. What I am saying is that if one denies the idea that evolution is an active process, that is occurring right now in every living cell, then one fundamentally doesn't understand biology.

Evolution isn't necessary the idea that all living things originated from the same cell. That idea is one of the most important tenets, but science cannot prove that: for all we know, the universe sprang into being last Thursday. There is at least vast amount of evidence in favor the theory of common descent, and the theory of common descent is what we use to explain the enormous similarities between all living things. All live forms ALL, plants, flies, fungi, humans, bacteria, beetles, sharks, birds, prokaryotes, etc are at their base virtually identical. The only way in which they differ is the specific information stored within the DNA: they all have DNA and the methods of DNA expression are identical. There is a string of sugars and there is a mechanism which translates that DNA into RNA which is transcripted into protein. That mechanism is identical for all living things. Furthermore, the genes that express that mechanism: virtually identical in all species: we share genes with yeast, how cool is that?

The idea that a divine being created all things as they currently are is just absurd. As absurd as the idea that everything sprang into being last Thursday.

 

I know this is going back a few posts, but I think there is something that needs to be made clear - specifically what courses doctors need to take, and how that might be different in the UK than what we see in other parts of the world. I'll speak of the USA, as that's what I'm familiar with.

It is highly unlikely that while in medical school you'll take a course dealing with evolution. That's because no one goes straight to medical school out of high school - you go and get a four year undergraduate degree first. For most students deciding to go to medical school, they take biology as their undergraduate degree, and they will be taught evolution. However, there is no requirement for biology to be your undergraduate degree. There are certain core courses that are recommended you take before going to medical school, and the main reason you see so many biology majors is that if you major in biology, you get all the core courses without having to take any extra courses along the way.

However, if you major in say, chemistry, you'll also hit almost all of those courses and only have to take an extra one or two. Biochemistry, will also give you everything you need. But the point is, if you're willing to take 5 or 6 biology courses, and 3 or 4 chemistry courses, you can apply to medical school with an english degree. (And I'm not disparaging english majors - I'm just pointing out that you don't see many of them applying to medical school.) So I'm saying that if you really want to avoid taking classes on evolution you can if you major in something other than biology - the mere fact that evolution is not among the core courses recommended for medical school tells you it isn't necessary to become a doctor.

For completeness, the recommended core courses for medical school typically include two semesters of freshman biology, two semesters of freshman chemistry (usually referred to as analytic chemistry), one semester in cell biology, one semester in microbiology, two semesters in biochemistry, and two semesters in organic chemistry. Like I said, the only reason you see most aspiring med students in biology is that biology is the only major that hits all those courses in it's degree requirements. So it's expedient to pick biology.

That's why I don't have sympathy for the people who say they shouldn't have to take evolution - if the UK is similar to the USA in its admissions to med school, majoring in biology is not the only means to gain admittance.

 

Aldeth, thank you. That was the best explanation I have seen so far, and covers off nicely that, while the study of evolution is essential in biology, it isn't required for medicine, and there are ways around it (at least in the US) for those who wish.

 

This is true in Australia and Singapore as well for postgraduate medicine. It doesn't even matter what your undergraduate degree is, all are welcomed (be it biology, arts and humanities, law etc).

I personally do not see what the big deal is with doctors not believing in evolution (and this is coming from a biologist). In many fields of biology, evolution is barely touched upon (if at all). If I took out all the courses with evolution in my degree, I would still have graduated fine and be working in the same field as I am (used to be in immunology, now in hepatology).

I am not quite sure what the rules are for that particular college, but if they felt so strongly about it, they should not have studied there in the first place. They seem to be making a controversy just for the sake of it.

Edit:
One caveat though: the admission exams for the US (MCAT) and Australia (GAMSAT) does include evolution as a topic. While you do not need to take a course in evolution, you would encounter it while studying for the exams.