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Drow Alignment is ok?

Discussion in 'Dungeons & Dragons + Other RPGs' started by Lord FOX, Jun 3, 2006.

  1. Lord FOX Gems: 6/31
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    [​IMG] How many times do you play with a drow in your party? It is supposedly one of the power races of every D&D games, but I think the alignments allowed to a drow character isn´t correct.
    Researching about the race, I find that mostly of them ARE evil, mostly chaotic or neutral( or any of the variations), but never good(except few exceptions like Drizzt himself),or worst, legal( wich is against their religion and their deidity Lolth), but the game lets you pick any of this options, just like it doesnt matters.
    Therefore, the question is:All those books (dark elf trilogy and the like) are wrong?¿Now any drow character could be "legal good" and become a paladin(in IWD you can do this) wich is against any knowledge of the drow race?
    Anyway, I just ask :confused:
     
  2. kuemper Gems: 31/31
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    Generally, drow are evil.
    Not all drow worship Lloth. Drizzt's goddess is Mielikki. Most worshippers aren't too far off in their personal alignment from their deity. Solaufein, an NPC from Baldur's Gate 2, worships Ellistrae.
    AFAIK, R.A. Salvatore's FR books are canon, just like Ed Greenwood's books are. If you can come up with a great reason for your drow to be of such an alignment (while fighting the controling influences of where s/he lives) and that particular class, then why not? ;) Ellistrae is good to use for something like this as that is why she remains in the drow pantheon - to give her exiled people a light of hope.
     
  3. Ilmater's Suffering Gems: 21/31
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    I've only created one Drow and she was NE. As for a drow paladin... um well LG is diametrically opposed to the drow and being lawful is the opposite nature of elves who are usually CG or CE for the drow. Though I suppose if a drow child was raised by a cleric of Torm and Torm came a calling, it's only natural that the drow child would become a paladin (since people don't "choose" to be a paladin). It's the DM's responsibility to make the player have a reasonable back story for odd alignments or classes in regards to their races (like a lawful orc wizard or a chaotic goblin bard).

    Often times it's the set of circumstances or mental abilities that determine alignment, a calculating lord or king isn't likely to be chaotic since laws benefit him and too much chaos increases the chances of a coup de etat. Likewise an irrational character will not be lawful, simply put any creature who acts predominately on emotion is at the very least neutral if not chaotic. Also most races of creatures can suffer from neurosis (movement towards lawful) or psychosis (movement towards chaos). Movement towards good and evil are a bit more difficult, but generally, unless the creature is a outsider with a good or evil discriptor or undead the creature is redeemable or corruptable (though it make be appropriate for a DM to expand the rule involving outsiders and as well add dragons to the mix, Gold Dragons becoming evil is rather ridiculous as are the inhabitants of Mechanus or Limbo doing something other then perfectly enforcing law or chaos).
     
  4. Felinoid

    Felinoid Who did the what now? ★ SPS Account Holder

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    The key to this is "if"; and it's a pretty big if. Yes, a drow can be absolutely any alignment under the sun (err, under the ground? :shake: ), but there has got to be a damn good reason in their background for it. Solaufein had love, and then the brutality he witnessed visited on Phaere for her caring. I haven't read any Drizzt books so I don't know about him, but from what I've heard of Salvatore, he'd have a good reason too.

    The problem with cRPGs (i.e. IWD2) is that there is no DM able to judge the backstory you thought up, if any. So they must simply allow everything and leave the players on the honor system to not only follow the rules of the race, but to know what they are in the first place. BG2 did a good job of this in not making drow PCs available, and making all the drow in the game NPCs, but at the cost of limiting your choices for your character. BG1 did this to a lesser extent in that Viconia, a joinable evil NPC, was the only drow in the game except for Drizzt.
     
  5. Oaz Gems: 29/31
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    Pretty much agree with the rest -- if the DM and you want to facilitate things, you could make up a backstory involving a small outcast community of renegade elves, a cult of Elistraee, etc, etc. (But note that outcast drow, like Viconia, don't necessarily have to be non-evil.)

    The problem is that if you play a good, renegade drow, a lot of people will think, "Oh, great, another Drizzt knock-off." I think that attitude isn't wholly logical, but be sure to do something besides base your character entirely off another one -- wielding another weapon in your hand adds no dimension to you character.
     
  6. raptor Gems: 16/31
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    from monstersmanual, drow/dark elf is listed as "usualy neutral evil".

    the various descriptions are: Often, usually, always.
    Often means that a huge part of (say 40-45% for ex) are of that alignment.
    Usually means that more than 50% of the race is that alignment.
    Always means that entire race is of the said alignment, but a very few individuals might develop a different alignment (very rare, but possible).

    In forgotten Realms Drow is more edged toward Chaotic Evil, from what i understand Lloth have alot to do with that, as Drow in other places worshipping for ex Vhaerun are more inclined toward Neutral Evil (and there isn't such a hige difference in the numbers of worshippers between the two anylonger).

    Those of you that have read the salvatore books might have noticed that alot of the drow/characters usually plans and thinks things out, and only after alot of plotting and setting up the situation does anyone ever try to assasinate another, doesn't sound very "chaotic" now does it ? Even the priesteses of Lloth are scheming and planning to backstab and overthrow each others, instead of just doing random sneakattack etc.
     
  7. Felinoid

    Felinoid Who did the what now? ★ SPS Account Holder

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    Chaotic doesn't mean stupid. It's the sheer number of these plots and assassinations that hint toward CE. In addition, you're missing the casual killings, like when you first enter Ust Natha in BG2. The plots and assassinations are only for the higher-ups who need such measures taken to be able to kill them. Anyone that high in the hierarchy would doubtless take steps to avoid perishing so easily, and it's smarter to plan a way around them than to just try to charge through and end up getting slaughtered.
     
  8. Milotus Gems: 1/31
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    Drows are usually evil, but it doesn't mean that there aren't any Drow Paladins. Although they might be extremely rare, but there are fallen angels, Balor can be good or neutral... It is a world of fantasy after all, only limit is your imagination (or DM). As for beeing a drow, you have to realize that people will fear you, because what you are (racists!!).
     
  9. Dall Gems: 3/31
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    In my eyes, it could be possible to play a drow paladin. for example, in the cRPG Planescape: Torment you encounter Fall-from-Grace, a LN (I think) succubus, and aren't succubi listed as "Always CE?" I think it's okay to play a good drow, if you can come up with a great background story. Sometimes these chars are actually better than the "normal" ones, because their backgrounds often are very detailed, which gives the DM the opportunity to use all this info in his campaign.

    But I still HATE all the Drizzt clones. I wonder how the drow population can survive, since the majority are CG male rangers ;)
     
  10. raptor Gems: 16/31
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    Sorry, i just cant resist linking another comic: http://thunt.comicgen.com/d/20050709.html

    Felinoid: Even then they behave overly more well behaved than you would have expected, i do belive that drow angle more toward neutral evil in the big and the whole, since it allows of the best (worst?) of two worlds, both plotting and backstabbing easilly enough.
     
  11. Faragon Gems: 25/31
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    Well, they've got plenty of cheese to go around :)
     
  12. Lord FOX Gems: 6/31
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    Piece of advice:For those of you people that donk know much about the drow race, try the wikipedia.There are some background info about every FAMOUS drow in the realms(including the entire Drizzt´s family, Jarlaxle,Soulafein,Phaere and the whole panteon of deidity.There´s also the complete story of Drizzt and why he runaway from the Underdark.
    According to this, any Drow that not worship Lloth, will be outcast, therefore they can´t be too many, or the Realms will be infested with rebels from this particular race.
    A drow paladin will be very unique indeed, if ever existed any,because the reason that obligued Drizzt to flee from home, weren´t his decission after all
     
  13. Milotus Gems: 1/31
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    This a little bit off-topic, but I say it anyway...
    Even creatures describet as "always nn" can be something else, like balors, succubi, Pit Fiends, clerics of a evil deity... In The book of Exalted deeds is a chapter where it is described that a Good character or creature may turn an evil creature to the path of right. Although Creatures with born alignments like Balors or even evil clerics, has a bonuses to their saving throws, and it is possible that Balors don't start to talk their deepest memories of their so called childhood. This action isn't a one day thing and it will take sometime to good character to achieve that goal... These are the end of extremes, and it is possible for them too. Drows however are just like dwarves or gnomes... Not all dwarves are lawful good. So I can say that it is more possible to see Drow Paladin than a Red Dragon who fights against evil and injustice.
     
  14. Dall Gems: 3/31
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  15. Ilmater's Suffering Gems: 21/31
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    Balors, being outsiders of the evil subtype are immune to redemption according to the Book of Exalted Deeds (p. 29, par 1), evil is part of their very essence making it impossible for them to become good through any sort of normal fashion (like the spell atonement where the subject must willing change). Balors, Pit Fiends or similar creatures would require something like the Helmet of Opposite Alignment which forces an alignment change.

    I've had some problems with the ability to convert creatures with the ability to convert "always evil" characters. I don't care how high my paladin's Cha score is and how many ranks in diplomacy she has, the idea of converting a red dragon to becoming a chaotic good character is just ridiculous (maybe unless you captured a wyrmling or a dragon of similar age). Chromatic dragons are the epitome of material evil, it takes more then talking to change something that evil, same goes for half-outsiders who have half their soul infused with the essence of good or evil.

    [ June 06, 2006, 18:42: Message edited by: Ilmater's Suffering ]
     
  16. raptor Gems: 16/31
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    Dall: I already posted that link in the other thread you copycat! (boo hiss!) ;)

    Example of an "always NN" turned into something else is Trias from planescape:torment, Deva gonne bad. So yes its posible. Though we kinda forgot about the drow's in all this :)

    Lord Fox: It is not entirelly true that anyone not worshipping Lloth is an outcast among drow. As said latelly alot of Lloth's worshippers/towns have had "circumstances" like the ruin of one of the mayor lloth worshipping drow towns (forgot name, from the War of the spider queen books). And also becose Vhaerun have risen alot and picked up alot of discontended drows from all around, and is starting to become near as large a worshipped deity as Lloth among the drow, and that also changes alignment more toward neutral evil for several groups of drow than towards Lloth's Chaotic Evil.
     
  17. Lord FOX Gems: 6/31
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    This is what I find about Lolth and the influence in the drow culture:
    Lloth is also known as The Spider Queen, Queen of Spiders, Demon Queen of Spiders, Demon Queen of the Abyss, Queen of the Demonweb Pits, Weaver of Chaos, the Hunted, the Mother of Lusts, Dark Mother of all Drow and Lady of Spiders.
    Lloth is a cruel and merciless goddess. She is believed by many to be quite insane, though she has many worshippers. She delights in turning them against eachother so that only the strongest, most devious, and only the deadly of her followers will survive. To many drow, Lloth is the entire meaning of their lives, especally for females. Therefore many males have taken up the following of some of the other gods.
    Fear is as strong as steal, while love and respect are soft, useless feelings that none can lean on. All drow who do not worship Lloth must be converted or destroyed. All weak and rebellious drow must be weeded out. All who impugn the faith must perish. Males or slaves of other races who act independently of Lloths dictates (and those of her priests) must be sacrificed to Lloth. Those of the faithful whose loyalty is weak must be eliminated. Children are to be raised as loyal worshipers of Lloth, and each family must produce at least one priest to serve the spider queen better than her/his parents. Arachnids of all sorts are to be revered, and anyone who mistreats or kills a spider must die.
    Her allies are Loviatar and Malar. Her foes are Corellon Larethian and Gruumsh.
    Anyway,If you can think anyway to convert a Drow male into a paladin, let me know(I think is posible if you kidnapp a drowling(very young) and raise him in a VERY care enviroment"All drow who do not worship Lloth must be converted or destroyed", but for a grown female,mmm, think about this:
    The game dont respect the fact that drow females are more strong and have a higher rank in the drow society,plus they are ALL priestess of Lolth(acording to all the info I gather, and the game let you pick any class).They lived their entire life under the influence of the spider queen(in order to survive,plus they are forced to do this"Children are to be raised as loyal worshipers of Lloth"),and suddenly became a chaotic good?mmmm....not gonna happens.
     
  18. raptor Gems: 16/31
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    The game lets you get away with picking any class to any race becose many people got sick of the class restrictions in 2nd edition ;)

    They basically shifted the coin a bit, instead of saying that "race 1 can only be class 1,2,3 and 4. any exeptions have to be aranged with DM." they have said that any person can make a character of any class, but it is up to the DM to stop silly things. The effect is mostly the same, but it gives a slightly bit more freedom. It is of corse, as always, very dependent on your DM.

    Btw a fairly good description of Lloth that, She does infact edge a tad more toward chaos than evil actually, not by very much though.
     
  19. Harbourboy

    Harbourboy Take thy form from off my door! Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Drow are intelligent so have a choice to be any alignment, even if they are normally evil. It's up to the DM to ensure that the background is valid. In a single player game, the player makes that choice. If you're making a good Drow just to get her powers, then on your head be it.
     
  20. Milotus Gems: 1/31
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    [​IMG]
    Yup You're right... I have somehow missed that sentence, or somehow my brains didn't work correctly when I read that book. Aaaah i'm so stupid :bang:
     
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