DominionSeraph's Endurance Powergaming Party.

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Non-combat War Chant doesn't make anything permanent. You still have to sing to get the effects.
All it allows for is healing out of combat while singing. Without it I would have had to go through the annoyance of potions and the occasional use of a heal/mass heal. So my cleric would have swapped out the Symbol of Hopelessness she never used for another Mass Heal, and the druid would have swapped out his Firestorm for a fourth Heal and the Tremor he never used for another Mass Heal.
Those two can get eight Heals and four Mass Heals between them.

There are also ways to disable enemies. Leave some confused schmuck wandering around, enfeeble the last enemy so he can't break your DR, or just throw down a grease and run around him to heal up your 12hp/rd.

Taking out that component wouldn't alter much. 90% of the time, the deciding factor on when you need rest is still going to be buffs running out.

 

I don't think anyone here is saying that (ab)using several bards in the way you describe would make for a poor party. In fact, you don't even need more than one if you're willing to go all the way and utilize the Lingering Song's infinite stacking bug. Just keep on activating and deactivating the songs and before you know it, you'll have +100 to everything.

The point we're trying to get across to you is that since it can be rather safely assumed that the designers never intended bards having such obscenely powerfull party boost ability, it must be cheating or at least utilizing a loophole in the game engine. Hence, any reasoning BASED on using such trickery to boost the numbers is moot.

I can create a party full of dual-wielding Half-elven rangers (arguably one of the weakest characters in IWD2) and equip them with "Dagger of Ultimate Doom +5000" from a self-created mod. And lo and behold, that party would blow your party, coin's party, UPP and JUPP out of the water, every day of the week, twice on Sundays. But you'll quickly realize *why* that doesn't mean that dual-wielding Half-elven rangers suddenly become the best of the best available in IWD2.

 

I read that, but you didn't say anything about using it in the off-hand. I only suggested you use it in the off-hand, so a weapon with a higher base damage (Cold Fire's 1d10+3 +3d6fire +3d6cold, or Bastard Sword of Heroism's 4d10+3 +5enchanted...) gets the constant ExEyes effect. I was only trying to offer helpful suggestions, but I'm done trying to help you.
I get it now: Your party is the best, and any criticism just fails to acknowledge its super-awesomeness. Enjoy your game - it's perfect!

 

I'm not really sure what DominionSeraph's point of posting about his party here was in the first place. He doesn't want criticism. He doesn't want help. Any criticism seems to get a negative reaction, complete with uncalled for insults. If you're posting to tell us that bard songs are stackable and you can make an invincible party using the exploit; that's one thing. I don't know that alot of people know you can do that.

Personally, I'm not impressed with your 'sploiter, cheese ridden party.

 

Criticism isn't valid unless you can come up with something better.

Unless you want to make a push to drop the Fighter(4)/Monk(20)/Bard(5)'s and switch them out for two more Cleric(16)/Bard(11)'s, I really don't think you have much of anything to work with. And you won't get any disagreement from me that those are about equal in "endurance powergaming" terms -- it was personal choice for me to go with the speed and passive DR of monks over actively having to Heal with clerics, but their endurance and power should be about the same in HoF. With Holy Power the clerics would be doing 2 more damage than the Monks (2 less without), and they'd have an easier time keeping Aid up if you want to exploit the +1 damage that that gives you. But for my play style, the Monk(20)'s came out slightly on top. Innate speed bonus so my other 4 characters could take the 4 boots of speed available, the DR, and I could take Fighter(4) for specialization without sacrificing anything good.
It was the 4 boots of speed that dictated 2 Monk(20)'s.

What was that again?

A weapon is not a party. You didn't even optimize your party's build to use that weapon.
With +6 luck to the entire party, my party would still be better than yours to run a game with that weapon in it. If it were Ranger specific, I could splash a level. And I'd still have the DR, the speed, the AC, etc., etc., etc.
Nothing changes.

 

You're still missing the point.

Your party without level-squatting and bard song abuse would totally suck. You'd face severe multiclassing penalties (never getting anywhere near level 30) and it'd take a while before your dual-wielders would be able to hit much of anything. Therefore, it's not your PARTY that is powerfull, but the way you ABUSE the loopholes available to it.

You also seem to be adamantly against spell buffs. What DO you use your spells for, then? You have two sorcerers and one of each of the divine casters. Don't tell me you're wasting your time casting Ice Storm when you could've Emotion: Hoped your party? Acid Storming instead of Mass Hasting? Glyph of Warding instead of Prayer?

Oh, I forgot. It must be the fact that refreshing no less than 16 songs every 3 combat rounds is a lesser evil compared to doing a good round of buffing and owning up an area or two in rapid succession. Yes, it's gotta be that.

 

About your 1st point: If you are sparing in your usage of spells, like me, then you can go through Heart of Fury mode while resting only 5 or 6 times. I hate resting, because I take ages trying to rearrange my spell picks. If I didn't use at least 80% of my spellbook, it also feels wasteful. Progressing as far as possible without resting, is part of the challenge for me too.
About your 2nd point: Tactics4IWD2 mod makes your summons start with 90% damage (near death). You could Mass Heal them, but that means you must use your biggest healing spell when your party doesn't need healing. It was a good deterrent for me, since I only used summons in HoF sparingly.
About your 3rd point: Buffing is only cheesy if your party had no reason to suspect they'd be entering a large battle soon, or if they cast fire protections just before being ambushed by Efreeti. A scout gathering intel on opponents before the party blunders ahead, is a good way to roleplay your tactics. But I know it's less super-awesome than bulldozing ahead. I consider the game to be a tactical challenge, not a 'design the most über-cheesy party to beat the game'/fallus-measuring contest.
About the 4th point: Relying completely on random drops is quite rare, I can't remember anybody recently who plays this way.
About the 5th point: Tactics4IWD2 makes ORS cheese impossible, by including invisibility to the sphere. Monsters will no longer target an ORSed ally, because they can't see him.

This forum has been around since 2003, just as long as the game. It isn't an organized research intitute, but certain knowlegde does get passed along to the more frequent visitors. It may surprise you to know that:
- We know bard songs are stackable with the Infinite Stacking mod component. [Apparently you didn't know that you needed just one bard if you want to stack 6 songs]
- We know how powerful bard songs are.
- We know you can abuse the Lingering Song feat, by reactivating a song every 2 rounds. [And we also know how tedious it is to apply this cheese]
- We know the powerful effects of luck.
- We know you can avoid XP penalty by level squatting.
- We know that offensive spells lose their power in HoF, compared to well-buffed/song-stacked melee. Having spellcasters that are way behind in spellcasting power, due to having lots of other mix-in classes, doesn't help in this regard.

When I said applying song-stacking to attain high AC was 'somewhat original', I was just being polite. It's just that I hadn't heard such a lame bug-abuse being presented as news, for a long time. The only thing completely new you've brought to this forum, is your attitude. And this leads us to doubt whether you will ever become a useful contributor.

 

After typing a long response, i realized the futility of it. DominionSeraph obviously isn't here to discuss or improve. He's here to bless us lesser mortals with his divine wisdom. I only wish He'd stop wasting His time on such undeserving creatures as we and save the world of hunger or somesuch.

 

Errr... of course it would. It would be a mess. Not as bad as a party of pure sorcs using Charisma as a dump stat, but still pretty bad.

Anything can be bad if played poorly.

What makes you think they're spamming spells? This is an endurance party.
My Druid does over 200 damage/rd. My Sorcs over 300. My Cleric pushing 400. They don't stop attacking unless there's a damned good reason.

Emotion: Hope is a given, but that has 3x the duration of Prayer, twice the effect, AND I have twice as many castings available.
Mass Haste is pointless to try to keep up. It's short duration, 5 out of my 6 party members already have 5 attacks/rd, and they don't need the AC for 95% of encounters.

This is not a party that thinks nothing of resting a month in an enemy's lair just to save 6 rounds of combat time. Spells are saved unless the situation warrants burning through them.

If you want to do nothing but spam spells while awake, and don't mind sleeping for 3 years to complete 10 days worth of adventuring, then play a party of pure Sorcs. MY party has spells for versatility -- to ensure that they can get though any encounter with a minimum of fuss.
There's no point in casting Malison, Despair, Recitation, and Slow on a group of goblins just so you they'll fail the save on your DBFB. When they can't break your DR and you can gib then in two hits, why waste ANY spells on the encounter?

There is no spell buff which gives +6 luck, +6 damage, and +8 armor to the entire party with an infinite number of castings per day.
No matter HOW much you are buffed, you can't even come close to my six Bards. And you'll need to sleep and rebuff every two encounters while I can go for 50+.

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Apparently you didn't know that it's the action of a feat which allows a Bard to infinitely stack songs, not a mod.
Infinite Stacking is for inventory items.

And you do need multiple Bards to not violate stated effects. Tymora's Melody gives +1 luck to a bard's allies. 6 characters each having 1 Bard(5) as an ally would only be +1 luck. 6 bards each having 6 Bard(5)s as allies (counting themselves) = +6 luck.

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All I'm getting is retarded whining.

If someone comes along and says, "Well, a car needs gas to run. It need its oil to be changed every 5-10k miles. Tires need to be replaced every 30-60k. To keep looking good, it needs to be washed every week or two, and waxed every two to four months. It needs to be insured, and you have to pay property taxes on it."
Is this an argument as to why the automobile is not the best choice for personal transportation? No, it's just a list of negatives presented in a vacuum.
Taking all of those things into account, the automobile is still the best choice out there. Whining about the negatives does not magically elevate some other option.

Whining about some particular of my party does not suddenly make your "1337" six Rogue party a better choice because, "Oooh, it doesn't have any multiclassing penalties!"

Pointless *****ing is just pointless *****ing, and I won't treat it as anything better.

 

Well, I will chip in and let you know why Bard song`s don`t stack (rp wise and such). You are fighting a battle, 4 bards starts singing the same song around you. Each singing their own version of it. Thats like turning on 4 CD players, each a few seconds before the other (initiative you know. Turn based after all). Good luck trying to keep track of all 4 songs lyrics, and whatsnot, to give you morale bonuses.

Level squatting is not possible rp wise either. When the character reaches a certain sum of experience, he levels up. In the game-world the time spent between two level ups, is the timeframe it takes the character to improve his skills and such. If the PLAYER controlling the character doesn`t level up the character, its an exploit. It has no rp reasons whatsoever.

Some multiclassing in general doesn`t work rp wise either. A sorcerer killing a few orcs, and then levling up as a barbarian, for example. A barbarian gets his d12 HD because he has grown up in a harsh enviroment. Its not something you get used to just by killing a few monsters in the snow. (just an example. A side-note if you will).

Anyone doing stuff like this in a dungeons and dragons session, would get eaten up by the GM, and the other players no doubt. Munchkins and god-moders usually gets put down pretty fast. Or voted out.

 

You like stories? Ever heard of the guy who tries to learn to swim but has an anvil instead of a rubber ring? Well, the story only gets better when that guy sinks to the bottom of the sea and then picks up a shovel and starts digging...

 

1. Ready Action.
2. Nothing says a bard has to start at the beginning.

Deafened bards losing any synergy makes sense, though.

Gaining HD really doesn't make sense, period.

Party synergy doesn't break a party. And a good DM will compensate.

 

???? Isn't valid? This is a forum, where there are discussions. Everything is valid. Let me ask you a question. "Why" did you post your party in the 1st place? To brag? "Oh, look at me, I'm the best". Grow up genius.

 

Please learn the difference between whining and proof. They're not even remotely similar.
Whining about a thing in no way proves that there exists anything better. And if there's nothing better, all the whining in the world won't change that.

So far, the only challenge put forth has been a partial set of elements by coineineagh. They didn't fare well.
If someone else wishes to put forth a party to be judged under the criteria which my party was judged, they're welcome to.
If someone wishes to pointlessly whine because they think that this somehow proves that there exists a better party, they are wrong. It doesn't prove a thing.
Presenting a party which is actually better is the only thing which demonstrates the existence of a better party.

 

Challenge? Whining? That's the thing DS, you take insult where only discussion was originally presented. Again, read through some the prior threads on these boards, we're not keeping score. We are all fans of the game, exchaning info and ideas to make later experiences more enjoyable.

 

I just realized that DominionSeraph built a party of bards so they can march into battle all singing him praises.

 

LOL!

..if he goes about everyday life with the same level of pride, it's bound to cause problems.

 

Having checked thoroughly, its quite clear than in 3-3.5 ed d&d, bard songs do not stack. If you get a bonus to saves, hp, stats, attack, damage, or AC (depending on the type of AC), they just overlap. Meaning you just get the highest one, of any source. Bard songs stacking in IWD2 is only possible due to the fact that its a bug, or they forgot to implement the restrictions when they made the game. Ergo iusing several bard songs to this effect, is using an exploit\cheating. Whatever one wishes to call it. I don`t see how cheating or using exploits is something to recomend, or to brag about. But maybe thats just me though.