Designated Religion Argument Thread

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Since Fellnoid said so, I've made this thread specifically for the purpose of religious debate, as it was taking over other threads. Please, attack people's statements, not their person. Don't turn this into a mud-slinging match. Also, please in your first post to this thread, begin it with your religious preference or lack thereof, like so:

(Atheist)
One of the main ways of looking at religion is from the position of consideration of commonalities between popular religions. One such commonality is the concept of life-after-death, whether it takes the form of rebirth or one of the myriad of concepts of Heaven/Paradise/Nirvana, and another is laws set down by the god or gods of the religion. These are similarities within very different systems of belief, which point to the origin of such beliefs. So, who benefits from these commonalities? Obviously, the state/ruling class benefit from the laws.. but the only people who benefit from the other are the people themselves. So, from this I hypothese (sic) that religion is simply a meme (I'm using the old definition of meme) which is easy to believe because nobody wants to believe the opposite- mortality, the idea that you only get one life and that when you're dead that's it. It's not an attractive idea is it? Paradise is much more enticing. The other similarity is easily explained by means of manipulation by ruling classes. I mean, "God Says So" has a lot more weight that "I Say So", even if you're a king. So, that's what we end up with- an idea that, although it has no evidence nor basis in fact, is so mentally appealing that people are tempted to ignore the facts in favour of what they want to believe.

...Mmmm, I think that's controversial enough...

 

This is agreat idea and I hope it catches on.

Personally, I believe there is a god, well, maybe, actually I don't know if there is a god. I do believe that nothing creates nothing so there had to be a First Cause, call it what you want.

Does this first cause care what happened to me today, yesterday, tomarrow? I don't know.

Is there a life after death? I don't know.

Am I an agnoistic? I don't know.

Do I want someone else telling me that I should believe this that or the other? Absolutely Not!!!

 

(Agnostic)
I agree with Yirimyah on almost all points. I think that probabilities and human nature point to religion as something we made up to make ourselves feel better. Since then, it's been hijacked on numerous occasions by people with their own agendas who need a group to do something for them. However, that does not preclude the possibility that there could be a sort of supreme being out there. It could simply be a case of:
>Imagine a mammal that can swim underwater. That would be SO cool!
>Hey, what's that big thing over there? Hmm, what should we call it? I know, let's call it a whale!

Up until about a year ago, I wouldn't have called myself agnostic (or anything else, for that matter). I had my own beliefs, and that was all I needed to know. One day Jon Stewart mentioned agnostics on the Daily Show (it's classified as a 'fake news' show ) and, having heard the word a few times before, I decided to look it up in the dictionary. Reading the description, I just thought, "Wow, that's me."

Basically, what agnosticism boils down to is this (for me at least):
What the makes you think you've got all the answers? How are you arrogant enough to think that you can comprehend even the merest fraction of the grand scheme of things? How can anyone possibly know what is true and what isn't? What makes you so sure you're right?

 

I don't think that the other religion threads will just die out because this one started, and despite the sentiments against any particular religion, I'll jump in anyway.

Latter Day Saint. The main group of the Mormons that followed Brigham Young after the murder of Joseph Smith. The Central point in our Doctrine is the Atoning Sacrifice of Jesus Christ. What sets us apart is that we have the Book of Mormon, a record of people that came from Jerusalem about 600 years before Christ, who had their own prophets to foretell of the Coming of the Messiah, and that Jesus came to teach them after his ministry as recorded in the New Testament. We also trace all priesthood authority through Joseph Smith, who received that Aaronic Priesthood from a Resurrected John the Baptist, and the Melchezidek Priesthood from Peter, James and John. We reject other religions becuase they have no such chain of authority.

@ Fellinoid: I believe the answers I have received (no, I don't claim to have them all) because of personal conviction. I get more of a feeling of accuracy in these teachings than I so when I read the definitions here of Evolution. When I read them, there's this feeling that I get that tells me that something isn't quite right. In my faith they call that the Gift of the Holy Ghost. After Baptism, we are confirmed and given this gift, to help us to know the truth of the things we are being taught, and to help us to know when things aren't quite right.

 

@Gnarfflinger:
I wasn't expecting a response. I was just trying to outline what agnosticism is about. Maybe I can clear things up a bit more:
It's about questions and wondering and not taking anything for granted. It's about adjusting, and continuing to think about what when where why etc. It's about knowing that you don't have all the answers, and being okay with that, because you get to keep exploring ... everything.

(And as a perk, you get to gloat about how other people aren't even aware of their ignorance, thinking they know all the answers; just as most religions have the perk of being the 'one true faith', with all non-believers being the ignorant ones. But I digress.)

 

That's probably the best definition of agnosticism I've ever heard. *applause*

 

I love it. Describes how I feel perfectly.

 

EDIT: Upon reflection, it seemed to me that my post was uncalled for. Herodotus said something like "I never mock another man's religion, for it seems to me that one person does not know more about these things than another." Advice to keep in mind when contemplating incautious posts.

[ July 18, 2005, 18:17: Message edited by: Cernak ]

 

Christian (Nondenominational) - and sometimes referred to as a "religion of one" (Jefferson). It IS about taking some things for granted. For instance, Christ keeps all his promises, and He set an example that goes beyond questions and answers of dogma in dealing with origins, but instead provides a mode of life that is moral, gracious, rational and peaceful. These things are easily taken for granted.

Those in authority will almost always use Christianity for their own personal gain and, in the process of doing so, promote a mode of life, which is instead, wholly immoral, bigoted, accusatory and warlike. None of these "qualities" were in the nature of Christ, nor in His teachings, despite the constant ranting by those who would ascribe such qualities to Him and His true followers.

It was only upon Jefferson's death that it was discovered among his personal belongings that he had carefully transcribed his own versions of the Gospels of Jesus Christ, which today are known as the "Jefferson Bible." It has been the subject of wide speculation as to his motives for writing and editing the Gospels. But they were obviously for his own personal use, regardless of his motives in crafting them.

Like Jefferson, I believe that Christian beliefs are highly personal and not for public consumption. As a result, I seldom take part in these types of debates. I feel no great, burning need to justify myself to anyone else for my beliefs. They are what they are.

 

(Atheist/Agnostic)

Sure, there's a chance that there *could* be a god - but then, one really isn't needed for the universe to function properly by what I can see.

And most gods if you follow them as written - well, that's not the sort of being I'd want to follow anyway, and if He in His divine wisdom wants to send me to hell because of this - well, **** Him.

 

Beren, very well said. Ditto - I can add nothing.

 

Atheist/Agnostic

Generally as Aik says, I don't believe in God, but I also am more than aware that in reality absolutely no-one KNOWS as no-one has proof one way or other.

I'm convinced that God as portrayed by Western religions (not knowing the Eastern ones) does not exist. The religions have been created, interpreted, altered and re-written by mankind. Even David Koresh was a prophet to his followers - an obvious false one, but who's to say which of the less-obvious were also false. You can't judge on actions alone - which is all we can go on from the muddied historical record.

 

Some religions have weird restrictions. I couldn't imagine being Jewish, if only for the reason that I love ham. Mmmmm...ham. *drools like Homer Simpson*

Anybody else have any religious restrictions they don't understand that they'd like to share?

 

Really?! Jewish people can't have ham? Why is that?

 

I think they consider pigs to be 'unclean' (not kosher). That means no ham, no pork, and no bacon.

Do we have any Jewish people on the BoM who can verify?

 

And as a perk of Religion, you are taught Humility (or at least you should be) so that you have a chance to avoid arrogant statements like that.

I wish more people (sometimes myself included) could abide by that advice. These things are very important to the core of the people, and at times, no mocking can cut deeper...

And unfortunately, these things that we take for granted are also some of the first things to be attacked by those that oppose Christianity.

Actually, I agree yet disagree with this. I agree that these beliefs are highly personal, but I disagree that they cannot be shared. There are those in a various congregation of the faithful that do share what they believe. With that sharing, some find their commitment strengthened...

Actually you'd be ****ing yourself by keeping that attitude at the last day. If, at that time, you still feel that way, then you reject any degree of glory that you would otherwise be eligible to receive.

Is it possible that God Really DOES exist, but His doctrine has been twisted and perverted, and His name taken to justify any vain cause (despite a commandment to the contrary)? The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints believes that in the early part of the 19th Century, God the Father, and the Son, Jesus Christ, returned to Earth, Appeared to a young boy who humbled himself before the Lord in prayer, and sent the Holy Ghost to those who heard the message to re-establish the Church as the Lord wanted it.

My religion forbids Alcohol, Tobacco, Coffe, Tea and Illegal drugs. This is seen as the Lord's Law of Health (Word of Wisdom).

 

Wow, selective reading at its best. You seem to have missed what I said IMMEDIATELY after that:

Am I incorrect in assuming that you think yours is right? Well run for the hills, Ma Barker! Your lack of humility will doom us all! Religion isn't about humility; humility has to be nurtured separately, by parents and friends and community.

Tobacco and illegal drugs (which ought to include tobacco, imo) I can see. Coffee I don't care for myself, and alcohol is not a wholly unreasonable restriction (we had prohibition as the law in the U.S. for a little while), but TEA?!? What's so bad about tea?

 

What is the health reason for not drinking tea? Green tea is chock full of antioxidants which help your body deal with the free radicals that can cause cancer.

I still don't understand why the Jewish people can't eat ham. Even if the pig was a bit dirty, surely you can trust the butcher to have cleaned it up before he sold it to you.

I can understand religious beliefs that revolve around being nice to people, honouring your mother, not stealing, nor murdering etc but I'm not sure I can understand one that says you can't eat ham.

 

No coffee? How do you stay awake in church? I mean, er, no one has ever proven that moderate coffee drinking is harmful....

Regarding pork, I think that Muslims refuse it as well.