Deporting U.S. Citizens

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No, it doesn't work that way. Your assumption that they *did* take people who don't pay taxes into account is even less supported than mine that says they did not. Seeing as how they specifically mentioned that 1 in 3 illegal immigrants don't pay taxes sounds to me like a nice way of saying "sorry, but we could not possibly include everyone". Espceically since you haven't been able to come up with a mechanism for how they would go about surveying these people who don't pay taxes. I can only think of three ways that you can get information on people's salaries:

1. Income tax returns
2. Directly from the employee
3. Directly from the employer (and I'm not even sure that one is legal for jobs outside the public sector).

To get the info from #1 is easy. However, I do not think it is a knock on the professionalism of academia if they didn't do much looking into #2 or #3. For #2, we don't even know where these people are. If there was a national database with the names and addresses of all illegal immigrants in the nation, you might be able to survey them, but there isn't. Some of them are migrant workers and don't even HAVE permanent addresses.

For #3 (and this is assuming it's legal for employers to release information on how much they pay their employees, which I don't think it is), just as we don't know where all the illegal immigrants are, we also don't have a database that gives the names and addresses of all businesses that hire illegal immigrants (in some cases the business doesn't even *know* the employee is illegal).

So IMHO, it is much more logical to assume that illegals who don't pay taxes are NOT included in the figure, seeing as how we don't know who they are, where they live, or where they work. Out of 12 million illegal immigrants, I would bet that most people included in that report are the 8 million or so that pay taxes.

I wasn't going to bring up birthrates, but since you did, I will touch upon it. I just read an article earlier this week that did just this - examine birthrates by race in various first world countries. The article presented its findings by listing a number for each country called the Fertility Rate. The Fertility Rate is how many chidren the average woman will have in her lifetime that will survive into adulthood. Naturally, the critical number here is 2. If the average woman has two children that survive into adulthood, the population is stable.

Most countries in Europe - Russia is the worst - have FRs significantly below 2. Russia comes in at 1.38, and long range forecasts there show Russia losing population at a rate of about 700,000 people per year starting next decade, beecause people are simply dying faster than they are being born. Japan was second worst with an FR of 1.41.

It also addressed the U.S., where the FR is 2.10. They said a common myth is the only reason that the U.S. has a birthrate over 2 (something that is rare to find in industrial nations) is because of the Hispanic population having a much higher birthrate than the white and black populations in the U.S. While it is true that Hispanics have the highest FR, they are not significantly higher than the other groups:

White non-Hispanic FR = 1.94
African American FR = 2.03
Hispanic FR = 2.26

So while the Hispanic population does contribute positively to the birthrate, it's not like they are greatly increasing the overall average. As a point of reference, the average FR for Europe is 1.70 - so whites living in the U.S. are producing more children than their counterparts in Europe, even without the positive influence from the Hispanic population.

[ May 26, 2006, 15:30: Message edited by: Aldeth the Foppish Idiot ]

 

I disagree on how they arrived at the 9. I think it is more likely that they relied on method 2 that you suggested. And, not only that, but I'd guess they probably also relied upon things like unions, free legal aid groups, free shelter groups, groups like My Mother of Guadalupe (sp is butchered I'm sure) etc.

The point is, I'm assuming they aren't idiots or intellectually dishonest (espescially since their numbers are supported by the yearly averages that were independently derived and are available - i.e. the 18.7k numbers.) You guys are assuming they are one of the two at least to some extent. Neither assumption has any support in this thread other than our gut feelings. So, we'll agree to disagree.

The birth rates information that you brought up in no way diminishes that the Social Security Trustees 2005 report indicates that we have to rely on illegal immigration to maintain SS's solvency into the future. My point is that they are admitting that many illegal immigrants are on the books and taxed while at the same time other governmental officials are telling people illegal immigrants aren't paying taxes. My point was the hypocrisy and also the fact that we may need illegal immigrants to maintain SS's solvency. Maybe you disagree with the Trustee's report but your article does nothing to contradict it.

 

You're closer than you think. All you need is an "o" in front of the u.

Evidently so. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure they did get some information from the methods you listed. I think the point where we differ is that I feel they included most (proabably nearly all) of the 8 million that pay taxes, but most of the 4 million that do not pay taxes were not included. I simply feel that those who do not pay taxes are proportionally under-represented in the study compared to those who do.

On that point we agree. If 8 million out of 12 million are paying taxes, then the only thing you can conclude is that most illegal immigrants do pay taxes.

 

"Spitting" was a figure of speech meaning to totally lack respect for something. The logic used by some ("they want to build a better life for themselves") holds very little water with me. Does the fact they want to build a better life for themselves mean they can kill? How about steal? How about extort? These laws are in place for a reason, just as the immigration laws are in place for a reason. Need or desire does not give people the right to ignore the laws of a country.

As for stealing jobs from Americans, it's true that the people HIRING the illegal immigrants are a big part of the problem. Government services rely on taxpayers who pay. Obviously, these employers -- and the illegals -- are skirting those laws too. Then they scream that they have the same rights as everyone else, which is true, BUT . . .

In order to have law enforcement and other agencies that ensure your rights are not trampled on work, they have to be funded, and those funds come from taxpayers! Therefore, IMHO, if you are illegally here you really can't complain TOO heartily about your rights when you are not contributing to the system that defends your rights.

America (and my beloved Canada) let in a LOT of immigrants every year legally and legitimately. The fact is that we do not have the infrastructure to just let anyone in. That's reality. If someone wants to immigrate, they should first show respect for OUR way of life (God knows we're expected to show tons of respect for theirs) by following our rules. Otherwise, they are criminals who we have every right not to trust or welcome.

 

They're greedy. I am not saying the companies are good, and I'll agree that the companies are doing illegal things too. But if the people don't come over here looking for jobs, then there wont be people to illegally hire...

If they go on strike again, we do.

 

It works both ways Saber, but who is the more desperate of the 2 - the largest retailer in the world (Walmart) or the poor Mexican?

 

I am not defending their greed, I hate it. Greed is one of the worst things in thr world. But, it is not solely the companies' faults, it is also partially the fault of the people. If they weren't so desperate (or if they demanded at least minimum wage), then the companies would have to pay them more.

A better solution would be for the U.S. to help the Mexican government make Mexico a better place to live: better working laws/conditions and better living conditions.

 

At the end of the day, you can't blame anyone from a less privileged country going to a 'better' country to try and find a job and a better quality of life ofr them and their family. Plus the fact that they usually do the less diserable jobs that the other 'locals' aren't bothered about.

Good for them if they do it and make it.

 

When my family legally mvoed to the US 11 years ago from Cuba, it was with the intent to have a better chance at a better life (which we do have). They and many other Cubans mention to this day that if the conditions were better, they would have gladly stayed in their country. Thousands of Cubans plan to return to Cuba once Fidel dies. I'm sure the same applies for many Mexicans and other illegal immigrants. If the US put forth more effort to help these corrupted South American countries like Bush tried to do with Iraq (same enthusiasm, no war) then I'm sure conditions would be much better. Already there is one South American country being ruled by a Fidel follower communist, others seem to be joining in on that.

Excuse my spelling and such, 6:38 am and I have gotten no sleep at all.

 

There is some truth to this. It is very hard to prosecute an employer for hiring an illegal immigrant, because under current U.S. law, the employer has to KNOWINGLY hire an illegal immigrant to face prosecution. Therefore, if an illegal immigrant possesses forged work papers, the employer who hires him is not liable. Obviously, most companies do not employ a forgery expert to determine with any degree of certainty which work papers are authentic, and which are not. Therefore, all you need is a decent forgery to be able to get hired, and we cannot do anything to the employers.

I initially fell into the same line of thinking - instead of going after the immigrants, go after the companies that hire them. If we fine companies that hire illegal immigrants, it will become unprofitable for them to continue to hire illegal immigrants, so that will resolve the problem. It was a great idea until I found out that the law connot prosecute employers who unwittingly hired an illegal immigrant.

 

@BTA - That was my point. If they have forged papers, then they are hoping the company doesn't know they are illegal and will pay them a fair wage. It's a win/win scenario for the illegal. Get hired, and paid more than the other illegal immigrants.

Many times, a company doesn't KNOW it's hiring an illegal immigrant so going after companies doesn't solve anything. Yeah, obviously, if they don't ask an applicant for work papers and ask him to pick fruit all day for $2 per hour, it's pretty obvious that if the guy accepts he's an illegal immigrant.

My initial idea (that I have since found to be flawed) was that it should be considerably easier going after businesses that hire illegals than the illegals themselves - it wasn't until after I learned that many businesses hire illegals unknowingly that I changed my view.

 

How about the next time all the illegal immigrants go on strike, you round them up, and ship them out?

Or, more realistically, spend money on keeping them from coming in, instead of on other things (yes, war.). Build a huge fence, hire a lot of guards, have constant surveilance. It would cost a ton of money, but we could do it...

 

If a company hires an illegal who is using forged papers, the company will pay the worker a legal wage and withhold the requisite taxes.

Any employer who is hiring ANYBODY--citizen or alien--on a cash basis is avoiding or evading taxes.

 

Again, that is my point. I imagine the same people who are in the business of illegally transporting illegal aliens into the country, are also in the business of getting forged documents for said aliens. All you need to do is get one person from a family over this way, and then he can earn sufficient money to get other members of his family through illegally as well.

EDIT: I just saw this article in Newsweek. One underpublicized part of the new immigration bill is that it will double the allowed immigration from Mexico each year from 200,000 now to 400,000. That total is almost equal to the esitmated 450,000 that now enter the country each year through both legal and illegal means.

[ May 31, 2006, 17:45: Message edited by: Aldeth the Foppish Idiot ]