Denmark opens up a can of worms

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A postal worker would not shoot at McDreck because of whom employs him, so why ask anything of his fellow workers?

You see the difference to muslims? Or christians for that matter.

After 9/11... were there no muslims condemning what was done to others in their religion's name? If yes, I wonder why.
If they feel there is no need for an explanation to the Europeans, then that is so. I will call that a fatal mistake still.
Perhaps they should then at least make it clear to their crazed brothers in faith they dont agree with them?
Silence on their part can and will be interpreted as consence, by both most Europeans and certainly by the fanatics.

 

Hmm. I think Pac Man and Drew both have valid points.

The Muslim community in Britain that didn't take part in the radical demonstrations should voice and make clear their disapproval of their fellows' actions. They do not owe anyone an apology, for they were not at fault. They DO need to make clear their anti-violence stance, though.

The postal worker-McDonald's analogy doesn't fit because he doesn't claim to represent post workers. The KKK and Pat Robertson analogies do work, however. Historically, Christians have made it clear they do not approve of the KKK. Most non-Evangelicals have made known their disapproval of Robertson, as well.

Relatively few Muslim leaders and communities have criticized the violent and radical outbursts, so far. Europe needs to hear the majority of its Muslim citizens voice their disapproval of radicalism, and their commitment to peace, understanding, and free speech, or else they will be mentally categorized as a potentially violent and disturbing faction (whether or not such categorization is correct). This will only lead to further tensions and outbursts of religion/culture-driven violence.

So... the peace-inclined, understanding members of the European Muslim community need to make their stance clear, for the good of Europe. They need not apologize for their peers' actions, but they do need to make the community understand that they are not mentally unstable individuals who resort to violence just because someone decides to voice a little criticism of their religion.

I really think religion can be a positive factor in people's lives, if only they think and remember that others have the right to think differently.

 

Drew, i would appreciate it if you would stop twisting my words, nowhere in post did i say that muslims need to apologise for the actions of their extremist brethren. What i said, was that muslims in general need to make their stance clear by either condemning the violence and bombings, or support it. Remaining silent isn't going to help them, they owe it to us that we know where they stand. Friend or foe ? That's not asking for an apology, that's asking for clarity, which is only normal. A lot of people feel threatened by Islam, wheter you like it or not, a gesture from their side could take a lot of that fear away. If they don't make their stance clear, the fear will eventually turn into hatred, and i truly believe that neither side is going to benefit from that.

If a few cartoons are so offensive to Islam and get the masses all riled up, then why do they remain silent when bombs blow up a railway station in Madrid, killing numerous of innocent people ? Isn't that doing much more damage to Islam than a few cartoons in a Danish newspaper ?

 

I think assuming that all muslims condone terrorism because people haven't read any (of the numerous) articles written by muslims condemning terrorism is what is hurting Islam. Moderate muslims are speaking out against it. They always have been. The sad part is that they have to, because that means people are judging them based on their religion, which is not only racist, but illegal.

Assuming moderate Muslims who do not speak out against what militant Muslims (who would be of a different sect) are doing means that they support those actions is like assuming Lutherans who don't speak out against the pedophilia scandals in the Catholic church support sex between priests and children. There are two main divisions of Islam. (Shiite and Sunni) Within those large divisions you will find something in the area of 20 subdivisions, just like with christianity.

 

When it gets to embassy burning, death threats, fatwas against the infidels, I would say that the (fundamentalists') muslim reaction went way beyond protesting some slight in a newspaper. Also, it isn't only some fringe groups which are protesting; if I remember correctly, government officials of some arab countries required that the newspaper in queation be basically muzzled. They also recalled their diplomats from Copenhagen, IIRC.

so it is a little bit disingenuos to try to depict the muslim reaction as being due to just some lunatics (as it is implied by comparisions with crazy postal workers or Pat Robertson). I think the whole affair shows that basically a large proportion of muslims (and many in power) think that some liberties should not be permitted. Which is fine, as long as that's how they want to live in their own country. However, they'd be better off not trying to impose their views on other people.

 

It is not disingenuous to say most Muslims do not support terrorism. Moderate and conservative Muslims (there is a big difference between conservative and militant Islam) have condemned terrorism for 35 years. Do an internet search and you'll find more than enough articles written by Muslims condemning terrorism.

It is disingenuous to say that all Muslims (or even most Muslims) support terrorist acts. There is absolutely nothing credible upon which to base such an assertion, short of the kinds of racist stereotypes that so many people seem to hold as truth. The western world doesn't understand Muslims, or Arab culture in general, so we just lump them all together. We used to similarly label all people of Jewish, Japanese, or African descent. (Well, actually we still do, unfortunately.) Now it's Muslims, and the misunderstandings actually go both ways. Since the only taste many Arabs get of the western world comes from our movies, many Arabs think that we walk around naked all the time and that we have sex every single time we go out on a date. Our misconceptions about them are equally absurd.

 

Well, let me put it this way: the great majority of comments I saw in the news coming from the governments in the arab world were of the type: this is blasphemy, and such speech (or pictures) should not be allowed. Some also required that the newspaper involved be punished.

Now, this is not incitement to terrorism; however, it is an attempt to curtail some rights in the western world (which rights, especially free speech, I happen to appreciate very much). And again, this comes from the government of those arab countries. I would not mind if some people decided to boycot danish foods; I don't even mind so much demonstrations against the infidels (it's clear that in any society there are some nutcases). However, when their governments condones (and maybe even encourages) such actions, well, that is another matter.

I cannot find most of the quotes I saw requiring censhorship, but here's one

And Turkey wants to get in the EU.

 

Christian groups asked for as much when hollywood released The Last Temptation of Christ. Martin Scorsese even recieved death threats from the Christian community and there were renewed calls for censorship in the United States as a result. It isn't just Muslims trying to limit free speech. Advocating limited speech is also a far cry from supporting terrorism, which several people have suggested all Muslims do.

[ February 07, 2006, 10:09: Message edited by: Drew ]

 

Which is exactly what they are doing with us as well. We're all infidels, infidel dogs even.

As for not understanding their culture...i don't even want to know their culture, i want to keep it out of my backyard as far as possible.

I don't know why you are being so protective towards Islam, and are so desperately trying to point out that we westerners are equally wrong and evil, or some such, but it's almost ridiculous. Now you come up with Martin Scorsese receiving death threats for one of his films. Well, you can hardly call a threat from one or two lunatics the same as a Fatwah spoken out by a very influential religeous leader, as Khomeini did to Salman Rushdie. The man needs around the clock security until the day he dies, for being the author of a friggin book that muslims found offensive. I think Martin Scorsese doesn't need any bodyguards when he goes groceryshopping, do you ?

Which will never happen.

 

Some more reactions:

in Afghanistan:

Comparing these with reaction to the "Passion of Christ" is kind of pushing it. And again, in that case it was not the government asking for restrictions to free speech.

Also, maybe it should be pointed out that newspapers in the arab world routinely publish antisemitic material, and I've yet to see any great outcry over this in the western world.

 

Meanwhile on the OTHER side of the world!

It's getting very VERY annoying that insulting Muslims warrents death threats. A bomb threat in this case simply because we believe in freedom of expression.

 

Of course i am, for your information i am not naive but i am talking about illegal immigrants, which you don't get that easy from muslim countries.
And i don't think it was easier ever to go to US than to a country in Europe for a muslim.
So if you compare the quality of people who come here and people that go to US, i guess you wouldn't say so........
I still also believe that you deny the fact that you too may (for me most propably) have a fragmented opinion of Muslims. Can't do nothing about it, but i am afraid that the events will justify me in the end than your point of view.
Sadly because i really wish i am wrong.
Anyway one thing is true the way we (Western World) think and perceive things is very different from the way Far Eastern and Muslim civilizations do.
And that is the major problem. We don't quite understand this kind of outburst, because WE would never do this in the last centuries.
But that is valid for the western world where religion is not such a fundamental part of our lives.
In these countries things are different from what we see.
I still believe it was an idiotic and arrogant move to print these cartoons. It was an insult (i agree nothing too serious if you look it from our point of view) to their religion.
And they reacted as worse as they could. We just gave their zealots excuses to firm their grips around the minds of their mobs.

 

I for one wasnt talking about terrorism, but of doubts many here have about the position of the majority of muslims in all this. What, in your opinion, is the cause for those doubts? If my experiences are anything to go by it's not because I have many muslim friends and witness harmonic coexistence in daily life. Which, of course, is not the case. Rather I feel (or hear of) their resentment and loathing, their will to keep away from us, too often for comfort.

So yes, there are muslims speaking out against this madness in articles. How many? Ten? Sixty? Even two hundred? And you think that will mean much when there are thousands upon thousands going crazy in the streets. When there are imams walking right over them, preaching hatred. With Arab (or the Persian) governments orchestrating and cultivating anger towards us. No, I dont think so. Obviously not all muslims are fanatics, but I think the trend works against them - and against us.

All of this has actually very little to do with what a Danish newspaper published. It's about the festering hatred for the US and Europe - the Western nations - in the muslim world. So dont tell me anything of fanatical minorities or something thereabout.

Your concern is *our* illegal behaviour... Sorry but I would be more convinced of your motives were you to adress the unknown number of muslims threating to kill us first, and then come back to the threatened party getting irritated over it. The Europeans maintain a stoic calmness, while muslims all over the place scream bloody murder. Still you keep your focus on the racism so openly shown by us when assessing the situation differently than you obviously do.

Hm. What's wrong with that picture?

 

It's happening in Spain too, I don't know why because we didn't hear/see any politician saying anything about all this, but, thousands of...ehhmm, (Muslims? Arabians? Pakistanies? Subsaharians? Shiites? Sunies?, well, I can't tell the difference when I see many of them, they all look alike, of course I know who are the Africans by their skin, and don't bash me because this 'differentiation', I just don't want to generalize, because no matter how much I try, when I see manifestations of this people, I don't know where they're from or what religion they should be) manifestants gather in from of Denmark embassy asking for 'a law that allows them (Muslims) to KILL infidel people like the ones that drew the cartoon'.
I didn't heard anything about Muslims, Arabians, etc., saying/stating that they are agains all this violence; perhaps they are doing that, but if so, we MUST demmand to BBC, NBC, ABC, local news shows, etc., that they have to show/inform us the other 'side' of the story too.
Their silence is making them look like potential terrorists; if not, ask the people who lives in neirboughoods full with Muslim people. In the last 2 months, police caught about 60 wannabe-terrorists (they were preparing to go to Irak to blow up people); just two floors down where my mother in law lives were arrested 5 of them, who thought that they were that? NOBODY, they live normal life around you. So when you turn your tv on and watch thousands of these people (that really look alike) asking to kill somebody because of a cartoon, and you see your friendly neighbour, without taking part in any side (friend or foe) what you do? I know that many, many live in fear. And just because of the silence.

 

Apparently last night, or sometime yesterday, the Austrian embassy got assaulted as well, simply because they are chairman of the EU right now. They certainly don't mind who it is to focus their anger on, as long as they're European. In the middle of all the hassle i also saw a few Arabs burn a German flag, what the hell did the Germans do wrong here ? Oh wait....they are European...how silly of me.

 

If muslims in general(thin ice) are so anti western standard, why dont't they just leave. They cannot while they depent on us for jobs and(this is a biggie)social security. So why bite the hand that feeds you. (The social laws here in holland makes it a paradise for some)


What is it, pride. What will it take to let them understand that we live by different rules and do not give a **** about any prophet what so ever. (Including all the others)

At work we have a tight group, but the cartoons made cracks that where not there before.

 

The whole situation is so screwed. I wonder whether there is a way out of it.

We have a group of moslems abusing Islam, justifying their violence with their religion. A loud, quite visible group.

We have a larger (?) group of moderate muslims who certainly disagree with them. They, however, are unwilling to step up to the fanatics for the sake of the West, feeling for a multitude of reasons that we are hostiles - a threat to their way of life. *cough* Bush/Iraq-fiasco *cough* Also I would imagine them to fear for their lifes when confronting the radical factions.

Then we have the muslims in Europe, of whom the vast majority lives here without being really a part of society. Due to faults of their own, but we are also to blame. The idiocy of the multiculti hype. "Dont bother them" "Respect their cultural identity" etc. - resulting in integration that never occured.

Overwhelmed, lost in the European societies, many of them cant find jobs, commit crimes and/or fall back on a quite conservative (aggressive) version of their traditions (accompanied by all the reports we can see in the news). Nothing of which is acceptable for the natives, us. Also, some of these people seem to be receptive to the radicals and their hatespeeches. Result: Europeans are scared, feel vulnerable, exploited.

For some reason, regrettably, the European muslims are quite comfortable in their roles as victims of the "closed off" European societies; never speaking up, not even organizing so much as a SINGLE protest march to make themselves heard. Nothing of the sort. "We will not be heard" Resignating before even trying something - sure, that's the way of doing things.
Instead they organize their isolation by creating their own infrastructure, meanwhile viewing us as something not far from an enemy, treating us accordingly. A favour that is of course returned. And then, when their situation turned into one of pure frustration, they see fit to resort to violence a la France. Result: Europeans - again scared and alienated. Pissed.

Thus we got to the point where muslims are equated with trouble by most Europeans; enter all the generalizations and racism some lament. Of course all of them who really live together with us, who partake in society (and they do exist), feel the brunt of anger just as much. Which is a real shame. But! Muslims are trouble: "They attack us over this comic incident, but why dont we hear the Jewish complain when we eat pork? Why no anger from the Hindus, when we milk a cow?"

Furthermore, Europe has the problem of facing a religion that is splintered, has no central figures to open talks with. Whom to address?!

Then there is astonishment how they can go berserk over a comic, of all things - but, pray tell, where are the demonstrations, where the outrage of the muslims over the thousands of Iraqis killed by terrorist attacks? "They are offended because of a caricature? Well, WE are offended when heads are cut off, women oppressed, homosexuals are executed, hands chopped off, and by hypocricy in general"

And so on, and so forth.

Into this tense atmosphere the bright bulbs that are our political leaders brought the prospect of letting Turkey, a muslim nation, join the EU. The lunacy of it is remarkable. Makes me almost wonder whether there is some intend behind it all. "It will be the bridge between Europe/democracy and Islam" Yah, right. I feel it rather multiplies the fear and resentment toward the muslims, making reactions even less rational. The EU constitution was the first victim.

There is amazement how it is possible that a mob of idiots is allowed to march around with placards demanding that Europeans should be killed - and get away with it! "Has Europe surrendered?" Again the sensation of being everything but good hands.

On and on it goes.

So many hurt feelings, anger, helplessness in face of incapable politicans and flawed political models, too much self-righteousness... self-importance on both sides without any kind of dialogue to bring about understanding. And there is no light in sight.

 

@Mithrantir: Actually nearly all of the 9/11 hijackers were on expired visas. In other words, they were illegal immigrants.

@Everybody else: all I was trying to point out with my Last Temptation of Christ example is that there are people in western society that call for limits on speech as well, and that advocating free speech does not equal advocating terrorism. I'm not trying to say anything beyond that.

@Dendri: In my opinion, these doubts are caused by ignorance. When people say that they don't want to understand Muslim or Arab (there is a huge diffence, since Arabs actually comprise less than a quarter of all muslims) culture they are saying that they will hold their opinion without regard to what the facts acually are. That is the very definition of racism.

Has it occured to anyone else that maybe this (percieved) "problem" is that the press isn't making any effort to go out and ask
moderate muslims what their take on the matter is? Or that the stories are getting shelved in favor of more interesting stories? (We all know how fair and balanced the media is. ) I don't know about the rest of you, but I can't just call a reporter over to my house to interview me about what I think about something. The press is only at the beck and call of "important" people. I see article after article written by muslims (both conservative and moderate) but few televised interviews. Why do you think that is? It seems to me that the press doesn't think it makes for an interesting story.

 

Just to point out the utter hypocrisy of the Muslims... http://www.adl.org/Anti_semitism/arab/cartoon_arab_press_080702.asp

Apparently they have been publishing insulting cartoons for years themselves. I haven't seen any Americans getting all fired up for being portrayed as Israel's doormat, and neither have i heard any angry Israeli reactions. Matter of fact, the guy who i got this link from, who is in the Israeli military, said that the Israeli had a good chuckle over the cartoons.

What an ocean of difference.

 

For the last time, ARABS actually make up less than a quarter of all Muslims. If you are going to slap a derogatory label on an entire group of people, at least have the decency to aim your slur at the right target.

Incidentally none of those cartoons are quite on par with characterizing the Prophet Mohammad, the most holy figure in Islam, as a terrorist. If you had some Arabic cartoons portraying Peter sodomising a little boy or Jesus having sex with Mary Magdalene, Moses urinating on a burning bush, or Solomon actually cutting a baby in half, you might actually have had something. And, yes, the cartoons were funny.

[ February 08, 2006, 00:55: Message edited by: Drew ]