Dark Arts from God, White Magic from Satan.

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But didn´t God gave him his mindset? Causing him to adoring himself. So isn´t God in the end responsible?

 

Well, if you have read Genesis, you would notice that God would rather the people come to him willingly when he asks Adam where he is hiding. So Lucifer, turned against God, hoping to claim the throne of Heavan.

 

Yes, god is responsible, assuming that god is almighty and knows everything. In this case, nothing that happens, happens without the approval of god or is at least tolerated by him. Lucifer is the work of god and is doing exactly what he's supposed to do.

 

Satan's kingdom is not meant to stand. But yes, Satan doesn't really drive out daemons. He's just their superior they listen to.

Lucifer received free will and his free will enabled him to choose. Pretty much like with humans. God is not responsible for not constantly using His power to prevent us from paying for the mess we make ourselves.

 

Like what I said before, he does not want to pull us to him, but guide us.

 

Which is because He doesn't want minions and underlinks like Satan does, but rather followers by choice.

 

Yes He is, God knew the risk when he gave Lucifer "free will". And God knew the risk when he gave us "free will"....

 

I just realized that I am a presbyterian. dam it. When god knows everything, how could he not have known, how lucifer would chose ? He must have known. God is responsible. That's the way god wanted it to be.

 

It's Lucifer who's guilty of his own deeds. Technically on this bases you could state that whatever you have done is God's fault.

@Yago: Of course God is omniscent and knows everything beforehand - which doesn't render Him responsible for the evil acts we commit. Technically nothing happens against God's will since He has control over everything, but what happens doesn't often have much in common with what God would like to happen. Well, whatever we say we should also remember God knows everything we don't know and that's pretty much, in fact our knowledge is practically nonexistant as compared to everything that could be known, not to even mention things by nature beyond mortal understanding. This way we're limited in judging what's better or worse or could have been such. We can't see all reasons and implications...

 

So you can give a 8 year old a molotov cocktail and a lucifer, with the knowledge that the chance he burns the house down is 100%, but still deny responsibility when he burns the house down....

Is God then like a big Bart Simpson up in the sky??
"I didn´t do it"

[ April 19, 2003, 17:37: Message edited by: Morgoth ]

 

I'm Catholic but I'm still not decided whether Satan exists. I thought only humans had free will but from the posts above Lucifer had free will. Even if Lucifer did, how did man learn about the story of his fall? Did God reveal this to some Israelite or whatnot in a dream or something? Please don't just quote the Bible. Otherwise we will fall back into the "it's a matter of faith" trap.

 

Whoa! Quite some replies allready! And I haven't read them all before I started this reply.

Well, actually, I had questions (the 2 on the bottom of my post)on Mats comment about driving out demons: "So even if they are healing and driving out demons, they still got their power from Satan."
I do believe that people get power from Satan to heal. But I don't believe that Satan would drive out his own minnions. And as Mat said: The demon wasn't, but the man who tried to drive the demon out was attacked in stead by the man who was possessed with one.
So I have questions on Mat's comment about "and driving out demons". Does that happen? Would that happen? I believe not, but when Mat knows for sure that it happens, then I got some troubles...

Sorry for being not too clear on that!

/me is reading the other replies now.

I see this thread has gotten a bit off topic. Shall we discuss here who is responsible for evil and leave this thread for what it was (White and Dark Magic)?

[ April 19, 2003, 22:17: Message edited by: Master of Nuhn ]

 

All religions are frauds.

 

Oh, ouch, Earl.

Anyways, religions are always tough to deal with. The Bible says smite Amalak, then turns around and says don't throw stones. It specifically contradicts itself every other chapter.

The good thing about this is people can choose what they want to listen to, at any time. It's like our constitution; it's open to interpretation.

Then there's other religions that have a hardcore, all-encompassing set of rules. For everything. With the disclaimer "If it's not in here, and done exactly this way, then it's wrong. If you are wrong, the punishment is death." Not really open to interpretation, and you get people that are fairly stagnant. Not completely stagnant. But living in the 1970's, when the year is 2003.

There are good and bad sides to it all. It's never good vs. evil, right and wrong, black and white.

The world is grey. You can reject the grey, you can fight against it, you can refuse to acknowledge that it's grey. Doesn't change it's color, it just changes your interpretation.

Which is kind of good, in it's own way. Over the course of 1000 years, the black and white have tended to average out to grey.

 

And that is exactly what is wrong with this world. We should be either black or white, not grey. Cold or warm, not lukewarm. Being halfhearted is the problem with modern world.

God and Satan can't be mixed, so grey is not an option.

Or maybe that was faith (for or against God, white or black). The world could be grey, indeed.

 

At some point you always have to decide...

Well, we aren't 8 year olds - with what God has given us we are able to tell good from evil, think before doing and take the responsibility for our actions. So the paralel isn't fitting. What's more we don't and can't know the alternative. Another thing is that instead of being free human beings prone to err we could have been made already perfectly selfless, good, holy etc from the beginning - not even knowing what we are really doing.

 

Well but God is so more wiser than us that we look like 8 year olds, right?
And still he made us "**** up" even though He knew we would, how irresponsible is that!?!?

And then the price, heaven?
For a game he lured us into himself? We are then nothing but playthings, and we can only achieve a place, only He told us about, when we please Him...

Does that even exist? How can you trust an entity so irresponsible??

By not seeing him as omniscient and omnipotent?
Since Genesis tells us he created us in his own image, it does not say a physical form, maybe the same mindset, with desires and emotions, and the ability to make mistakes...

[ April 20, 2003, 16:06: Message edited by: Morgoth ]

 

As the image we're indeed bound to have some mindset similarities... so in turn God must resemble us somehow if we might say so... Comparing us to him, as with the 8 year old example is pointless - we're so low in all aspects... anyway, God is not the one that suggests our evil deeds, but we're left to do as we will (with Him intervening from time to time anyway) - as our responsibility. As in Dune, where 'God created Arrakis to test His faithful'. It's just in the light of faith Earth and this life aren't the central point of our existence.

[ April 20, 2003, 18:57: Message edited by: chevalier ]

 

Why would God test us? He already knows what is going to happen right?

 

Sorry for the late response, but I felt like I had to make a response.

I'm not sure what you mean in the second part. If using magic to harm someone, a Wiccan or whoever would probably classify that as "black". For the most part, killing someone is harming him or her.

For the second part, it may or may not hurt one's environment via helping him with "white" magic. But besides that, I think that "white" magic is intended to help. Meaning that if it screws up something, it's still "white". 'Cause that was, you know, a blooper. Your heart was in the right place. The intention was meant to help.

Just so you know, I have no idea or stance on this entire "black/white" magic thingie. I'm just vomiting what I understand of it.