"Choice"

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And now, remember that what this girl is going through is both forced on her by her parents and government sanctioned. If the family can't take care of her child what do you think the chances are that she'll be able to get the help she is going to need after this?

[ March 13, 2007, 09:44: Message edited by: Shadow Assassin ]

 

As said before I was in a position were women turned to me with some of their problems including the effects of having had an abortion. The ages varied quite a bit and so did the effects.

All however had psychological problems, some mild, some severe. Even having an abortion as early as three weeks caused problems as well as physical readjustment.

As to the thirteen year old girl thinking the of the unborn child as a doll I doubt it. I come from a generation when 13 yr olds were fairly naive but by the time we reached 13 we were not playing with dolls and certainly knew the difference. But then maybe we had more responsibilities then the new generation.

 

Okay, I'm going to re-iterate some of what I said previously, using some material that Shadow (mind if I call you by your first name? ) quoted - emphasis is mine:

Or in other words, 25% of our children world-wide are already affected by "interpersonal or community violence" - a term which I'm fairly certain ChildTraumaAcademy doesn't intend to include 'having a medical procedure forced on you by your parents and the courts'. Personally, I'd be inclined to say that that 'one-in-four' statistic is conservatively low - EVERYBODY'S damaged goods.

Every adult homo sapiens sapiens that walks the planet has had some kind of psychological trauma that has had a profound effect on they way he/she behaves, with the effect varying widely. Sometimes, as Abom intimated, it actually has a positive effect in making this individual a more responsible, thoughtful and mature person. But I'm willing to wager that it's more likely that neuroses, phobias, obsessions and compulsions pop up in the person's psyche as a consequence.

I'd like to hope that this 13y/o is going to come out of this circumstance in the manner that Abom posed - realizing that her actions can have serious consequences, but I'm not going to put money down...

I realize this all sounds a little callous, but then, at the age of roughly eighteen-and-a-half, I got the wonderful experience of having my highschool sweetheart die in my arms; something I admit is a consequence of my driving inattentively on a rainy night (and the courts also decided that the automaker whose defective windshield let debris from the crash pass right through as if it was wet paper and strike her lethally, that they also took some of the blame). Subsequently, I realize that I may come off as rather brusque and unsympathetic....as well as being a paranoid driver that tends to hold up traffic somewhat.


Oh, and Nakia? I'd tend to support your actually final comment - newer generations seem to have been 'coddled' more and more from 'big scary things' when they're younger as well as unintentionally shielded from consequences. By the time things passed to my generation, I'd say that not many of my contemporaries had much maturity about even taking care of a pet when thirteen.

But then, it depends on the individual - we're all so different, including development rate of 'maturity' - and none of us here know enough about the situation in Italy to state with any certainty that any one choice would result in a better or worse end result for the people involved.

 

Can't really disagree with anything you said, kuemper. Life may be a bowl of cherries but don't forget the pits.

The thing I forget or surprises me when it hits me in the face is that the young people of today know so much more about things than my generation did. Sex education in schools, TV and now the Internet. Also I lived on a farm until I was 15. Farm children are expected to help out. I was a mother's-helper at 12.

Even in the 60's when I was teaching some of the older children would help with the younger children especially in our boarding schools. They were not forced to but a lot of them liked doing it.

The moral of this? None. I just have to remember that knowledge and responsibility don't necessarily go together.

As to the girl in Italy I just see her as being in a no-win situation. I guess she and her boy-friend must have missed a class.

 

Um...heh; go see my "DST sucks" thread for an explanation as to why kuemper is suddenly posting in the Alleys...

(I guess I don't pay too much attention to peripheral details early in the morning when I first get up, even if my mind itself is buzzing with ideas. Maybe I should start taking java? )

Sorry for the confusion.

 

Abomination, that post just cemented in my mind that you have no understandign of psychology at all. In fact, I'd go as far as to say you probably shouldn't be posting in this topic at all. That's not to say I don't want to hear your opinion, but I would very much like for it to be an informed opinion.

Adoption, while not a pretty sight for any mother that wants to keep her child, is not nearly as traumatic as having it killed. Biological mothers of children who were later adopted do not, in general, show signs of psychological trauma. Unfortunately for statistics, most mothers who's children were forcibly taken away from them either suffer from pre-existing psychological disorders (which is why the kids were taken away) or were heavily involved in drug use at the time (causing totally unpredictable reactions to events). This makes the availible data on forced adoption and trauma rather small, but there's still no evident pattern of trauma. On the other hand, the kind of trauma caused by abortion is well catalogued.

 

Make that, "CAN be caused by" and you've got yourself a deal. No one can predict with 100% certainty how any individual will react to any set of stimuli. I'm sure there myriad of cases where a woman has an abortion and suffers no adverse psychological impacts, but you're not likely to place much stock in those because they don't support the ultimate point that you're trying to make. You wear your biases on your sleeve, and it doesn't do your credibility any good.

NOG, may I inquire as to the source of your own expertise? You have posted (in a number of different threads) with great confidence on a wide range of topics, from history to subatomic physics to psychology to parenting to health. I'm curious as to where any individual who is as young as you are (20's, IIRC?) has gained such a breadth of absolute, unimpeachable information.

 

NOG and Abomination,

Unfortunately, I have no idea which if you are correct, if either of you are correct. Both of you make statements that seem plausible. Are either of you psychologists? What are the credentials here? I guess I'm having a hard time accepting what either of you are saying if you are just basing it on personal opinion.

To me, I would have to agree that getting an abortion could most definitely cause psychological trauma. However, I do not think I would go so far as to say that ALL people who get abortions suffer from psychological trauma. It just seems that both of you are taking extreme positions, and I'm curious as to what source or background you have that has caused you to take such a position.

EDIT: I didn't attempt to essentially ask the same thing as Rally - she posted while I was typing.

 

@Rallymama:

How about "the kind and frequency of trauma caused by abortion". I was talking about the trauma that has been caused when trauma is caused, accepting that there are times when no trauma is caused, though I may not have worded it well.

As for your question on my experience, it is a good one. Most of my physics and related knowledge either comes from schooling (engineering involves a lot of physics) or personal reading. I'm very interested in those topics. My biblical studies have been guided by my father, who graduated from seminary and wrote weekly bible studies for many years, and my brother, who is about to graduate with is Master's in Divinity. By psychological knowledge stems from a personal interest heavily aided by a father who is a psychologist and a gf who just finished her Bachelor's in Psychology. History is another interest of mine I share with my father and brother, as well as many friends. Needless to say, I do a lot of reading.

As for my knowledge on this topic, on top of the above cited psychological references, a good friend of mine is a counselor at my church. She sees a lot of women come in with issues around an abortion, including many who thought there was nothing wrong with it, but have kept an abortion secret from everyone, even their own husbands, for years. None of them are in good mental states. Now obviously, the people that don't have problems don't come in for counseling, but the number that do, in this area, shows that a majority of the women (in this area at least) who do get abortions have serious psychological trouble with it. On top of that, the number of women that come in after years of covering it up, finally confessing to having been haunted by the event ever since, makes me wonder how many actually walk away unscarred and how many just cover up the scars and don't talk about it. It's kind of like the rape phenomenon there, where its impossible to tell how many women are raped every year because most rapes don't get reported.

Aldeth, I hope I've answered your questions, too. While I certainly believe that abortion is wrong in and of itself, I don't assume ALL women who have abortions suffer psychological harm from it. There is something to be said, however, for the degree of chemical change that goes on in a woman's body when she is pregnant, and the shock that can be caused by the sudden and unexpected termination of that process.

 

It looks like you don't understand our generation at all, Rallymama. I'm 24, I've change my major 4times because they wer unable to hold my interest. My personla library ranges from textbooks on cybernetics to LS1 engine perfomance manuals. I've spent countless hours reading about almost anything I can get my hands on. I spent who knows how long learning everything from theoretical math to quantum mechanics so I could understand what I was reading about superstring theory. The more intelligent of my generation have an unquenchable thirst for knowledge.

I'm not sure how familiar you are with the effects of traumatic experiences(and no, I don't believe all women see abortion as a traumatic experience) but the effects of a traumatic experience are not always immediately recognized. It can be years later when the effects of the trauma begin to show through. The only constant(as seems to be accepted by the psych community at large) is that there will be some effects as a result of the trauma.
/rant

OH, and this distracted me from Star Trek, that's right, you adversely effected Star Trek. How dare you, you should hold your head in shame for such a slight against Jean Luc Picard.

[ March 14, 2007, 19:15: Message edited by: Shadow Assassin ]

 

May I suggest some reading on the topic of humility? I'm sorry, but that entire paragraph came off as ever-so-arrogant. As if an interest in a wide-array of subjects is the exclusive domain of the under-30 crowd. I was like you once, and I grew out of it, so there is hope for you yet. As Teddy Roosevelt once said: "Youth is a curable disease."

 

The reason I said that (and I shouldn't need to defend myself) is because my generaton is also the one that subscribes to the thuglife mentality growing up in suburbia. The people that will shoot you just as soon as look at you are my generation(as evident by the murder rate here). My generation is the most likely to think that a gun is a bargaining tool and are less likely to graduate from HS than generations past. So I have to differentiate as the other half is why more go to college and have earlier success as compared with previous generations. While it may seem arrogant arrogance is not the reason for it. There is very little middle ground in my generation.

Oh and how about instead of trying to bash/flame each other we get back on topic? As it stands what happened to this girl is a much bigger issue than whether you think I'm arrogant, I might be just not in that post. If you want to discuss my arrogance that's fine, this isn't the place for it. You might want to re-evaluate why you posted what you did and then take a stong look at yourself. I try hard, really hard not to bash people. I work at not questioning where they get, or don't get their information and simply state my side and, when necessary, sight published works. Right now I'm trying to temper my lividity after being called arrogant for coming to the defense of someone that expressed an informed opinion and then was, essentially, bashed for having an interest in a wide range of subjects. Instead of attacking a person why not see if you can corroberate their view? If you took a minute you could easily find things like this.

Now, let's quit trying to hijack this thread for the purposes of berating others so you can feel better about yourself, and instead discuss the topic at hand, one which my quote should help to move along nicely.

[ March 14, 2007, 19:04: Message edited by: Shadow Assassin ]

 

/me re-evaluates self, then takes strong look at meself ... yup, me still feel the same way/

First, to explain myself a little better, I didn't say you actually were arrogant - only that what you wrote made it appear so. I said it came off as arrogant, because that's the impression it gave me. Regardless of your relative state of lividity, it does not change the fact that the impartial observer would find your statements arrogant. That you now say that this is not so can, unfortunately, do nothing to change what I thought when I first read your post. I don't know you sa, and for all I know you may be the most humble person in the world - but you wouldn't think that from reading what you wrote. (As an aside, I'm a little curious as to what you define as "your generation". I'm only 8 years older than you.)

As for the topic at hand, it seems that sa's post actually supports my initial position. While it is certainly possible to suffer psychological damage from an abortion, not only does this not happen in all cases, but in fact, it is patently false to state that it happens in the majority of cases. Just look at the first sentence:

So even taking the high figure of 40%, even if all the women who show moderate to high levels of stress and avoidance behavior actually suffer from psychological trauma, I still like those odds better than the 100% odds that the child the 13-year old is pregnant with cannot be properly cared for by either of its biological parents.

Look, I'm not denying that it's possible for this to turn out really badly for the girl in question, and if it does, that is unfortunate. However, given her actions up to this point, it is quite clear she lacks the maturity and experience necessary to make important decisions like this. I still support the parents' right to make this decision, and I still think that the exact same ruling would be made here in the US that was made in Italy.

Let's face it, this was an unplanned pregnancy. If she actually intended that her boyfriend get her pregnant, then I only question her present mental stability further. If she was actually a level-headed 13-year old, she should have been smart enough to not get knocked up by her equally immature and uninformed 15-year old boyfriend. She already has made one pretty lousy decision by having (evidently) unprotected sex at such an early age, and do not think she should be allowed to make another.

[ March 14, 2007, 19:55: Message edited by: Aldeth the Foppish Idiot ]

 

The percentages on the abortion aren't applicable in the way you might think. Remember, this is a study of all abortions. the percentage is of those that find it traumatic. What is of importance in this quote is not the percentage but the why they find it traumatic, one of those reasons is forced abortion. Read that quote, along with the others I posted and then do a little research on the subject matter. You'll undoubtedly find that the psychology community at large thinks this girl will be traumatized by this.

 

Not to hijack this thread (even more) but, no, it isn't. Yes, look at the murder rate--in America as a whole, not Florida (I have no idea if Florida deviates from this trend). Look at the violent crime rate. Look at the rate of drug use. It's dropping in 'my generation' compared to previous eras, and has been for a while.

Yeah, 'we' listen to $.50 and Snoop and The Game and play GTA and so on, but we're still less likely to rob a bank than our parents were.

 

Just to clarify, my argument earlier was that there won't always be psycological trauma in girls who have an abortion. I'd never deny that it never happens. I was just refuting that people are using the word 'will' alot in regards to what will happen to the mental state of the girl in question.

I just want people to realise that there isn't any law that dictates: Girl has abortion, therefore girl shall suffer from psycological trauma.

Then what is 'psycological tramua'? Feeling upset and sad for a week? I was thinking more on the lines of developing semi-permanent mental issues and/or an obvious change in personality.

As to my qualifications on the subject? None bar interacting with girls my age who have had an abortion or have given their child up for adoption, most in my age group. I'm no specialist in this field, I'm an insurance, investment and financial advisor. I pull my conclusions and beliefs from real-life interaction with people in the situation we're talking about.

And yes, I even knew a 14 year old girl who was 'forced' into having an abortion (let's say her parents make it explicitly clear) and 7 years on has no mental issues as far as I can see or know about.

 

just because you, as an outsider looking in, can't see it doesn't mean that it isn't there. I tend to like using myself as an example so a couple years ago a friend of mine was murdered in a horrible way and the killer has never been caught, most of my friends are in jail, in the USMC 2 members of my recruit class died during training, and I had to leave the USMC due to a disabling knee injury(believe it or not this had the most obvious effect on me and my life as I had to completely reevaluate my life goals). Now you'd never know anything adverse had ever happened to me, but I have had to see a psychiatrist in the past to help me cope. These things pale in comparison to what is happening to this young girl.

and this:

shows that you didn't bother to read what I posted on ptsd(post traumatic stress disorder) and traumatic effects on children. If you had you wouldn't have posted that as the subject matter has clearly been addressed using published works from experts.

 

Perhaps I am missing something but I just took a quick glance back through this thread looking for links to the POST-TRAUMATIC STRESS DISORDER (PTSD or PAS): studies and didn't find any.

I would like to point that someone who does not suffer from even mild trauma is unlikely to participate in such a study unless there is some incentive to do so. IE: financial. So I would like to know who was studied and how many cases. I would like the links to the studies cited. Since this topic concerns abortion it should be only those. Sexual abuse is a different topic. Nothing in the article states that the girl was sexual abused.

 

I didn't include the links, a quick google will turn up a wealth of information.

 

SA, I know a quick Google will but I was hoping for the specific links cited in this thread. IMO it would be a courtesy to list them. Not every one has the time to search through thousands, even millions of links for a specific one. If not the actually links at least the Organizations that conducted the studies.