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Champions of Krynn Trilogy

Discussion in 'Playground' started by kmonster, Feb 22, 2006.

  1. Mad Weirwood Gems: 1/31
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    I'll keep an eye out for that, but I have a character editor, so bugs like that should be easy to take care of.
     
  2. Blades of Vanatar

    Blades of Vanatar Vanatar will rise again Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Mad Weirwood,

    Are you running on XP, Vista or Win 7? The GBC notes that it is not tried and tested on Vista or 7.
     
  3. Mad Weirwood Gems: 1/31
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    I'm still using XP.

    One more thing I meant to ask about: What's the appeal of F/M/Cs?

    They're certainly decent characters early on, and I assume there's enough XP in the first two games to reach the level cap even with a triple class. Is that the reason? But once you're in DQK, isn't the triple class a significant hindrance in how fast you get caster levels?

    F/M/Ts I understand. The appeal comes from backstabbing, for which the fighter levels definitely help, while the mage levels ensure you can do plenty of useful stuff when you don't have a backstab opportunity. I consider a F/M/T to be better than either a M/T or a F/T.

    But at high levels, a straight C/M is a much better caster than a F/M/C, while already being able to cast in armor. And you'll have so many spells that you'll almost never want to simply attack, which makes the fighter levels obsolete.
     
  4. Blades of Vanatar

    Blades of Vanatar Vanatar will rise again Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    They are support characters. Which is useful in CoK and DKoK. F/M/C gets more HPs(but not that much more) and more AT/round than a M/C. Basically more staying power in Melee if needed. They just level much slower. I think they are a good support character, but for DQoK, they become obselete as most want 6 powerhouses. Not bad per say, but most other builds become more powerful.

    BUT, I don't think that DQoK is that tough a game compared to PoD that you will need 6 powerhouses. So, A F/M/C won't ruin your party either. You'll form your own opinion once you conquer Dark Queen. When that happens let us know what you think!;)
     
  5. kmonster Gems: 24/31
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    The idea behind fighter/mage/cleric in DQoK is that fighters are almost maxed out at level 13 and it would be a waste not multiclassing them. Clerics don't benefit much from very high levels either, at level 12 or 16 they already have access to level 7 spells and can even resurrect party members or restore drained levels, casting level is quite unimportant for them. Mages need only level 15 to cast level 9 spells.
    At 4,500,003 XP which is quite early in DQoK (even right at or very close to the start with imported characters) a neutral C/F/M is maxed as fighter and has access to all cleric and red mage spells, a good C/F/M needs 6,000,003 XP to gain access to all cleric spells which is still reachable long before the end, the feeling of accomplishment is better if you can't do everything right at the start already.

    The main benefit of multiclassing is that you get the first 8-11 levels for the price of one, so why not get this benefit twice, for adding a second class you already give away 50 percent from the XP your first class gets, adding the third will only cost additional 16,666... percent of the XP you'd gain in this class as pure class character. Starting with imported characters with far more XP evens out the loss somewhat. Triple classes can stay away from training longer and don't have to fear loosing XP after importing.
    You can grind as many XP you want during the game but you can't add a third class to your characters during the game.

    Adding fighter levels to C/M more than doubles the attack power when fighting in locations where magic doesn't work or versus monsters immune to magic which usually appear in the hardest battles and a lot in DKoK, 18/.. strength also makes carrying stuff more comfortable.
    Adding cleric levels to F/M will add the special deity bonuses (like +1 to hit) and more healing which can be very useful in locations where you cannot rest, you also get another character who can fix things up if he's the last one standing after the battle.
    Adding mage levels to F/C grants a lot of additional options and powerful spells.

    In the beginning of CoK F/M/Cs are extremely powerful, they sweep through monsters, put them to sleep, cast hold person, heal the party and get lots of cleric bonus spells.
    As long as the XP requirements roughly double with each level the triple class is often the same level as a double class.


    For those reasons I had 3 F/M/Cs in my party.

    In CoK they didn't even get close to level 8, even single class casters could have been exported without loosing XP.
    It was similar in DKoK, none of them reached the highest level. Single classes would have been capped too early, but the XP gained would have been perfect for double classes.
    Double classes wouldn't have maxed out in DQoK either.
    Late in DQoK I started regretting not having double classes, when casting fireballs at your enemies is almost the only thing you do in battle only mage levels count. More mage levels mean more fireball damage, a higher chance to overcome magic resistance and therefore faster battles.
    So I had to use more strategy fighting black robe mages and spell resistant draconians instead of simply fireballing them into oblivion.
    But after gaining some more levels they succeeded anyway.


    If I'd replay the games I'd replace the F/RM/C with a cleric/red mage and one of the F/WM/Cs with a fighter/white mage to make more use of the high casting levels the games offers, although the triple classes were probably more powerful most of the time during the trilogy and at the end.
     
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  6. Mad Weirwood Gems: 1/31
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    See, in my experience, one or two clerics are all you need, especially since the knight can also cast when necessary in the second and third games.

    From that point of view, the cleric part of an F/M/C would only drag down the characters mage levels, compared to a F/M.

    I do like having one C/M. As I said, he's pretty much a full time caster. I don't remember any no-magic zones in DQK, but it's a long time. Even when you're fighting magic-immune enemies, you can buff and heal your party with your cleric spells. But for a full-time caster, the fighter part is extraneous.

    Admittedly, it gives you access to bows and exceptional strength, so there's that.
     
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  7. Blades of Vanatar

    Blades of Vanatar Vanatar will rise again Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Trying an All-Kender party. VERY challengling. No Mages and 16 Str max. Classes are below. I will be entering the tomb of Sir Dargaard. Lots of Hold Persons and Silence 15' Radius spells going on. Eagerly awaiting the Gauntlets of Ogre Power & the Girdle of Giant Strength(Str-21). It will give me two kick-ass warriors at least. Not sure if this party is viable in DKoK or DQoK, but if I can beat the end-game battles then I think I will continue on with the saga. The Sir LeBaum fight, the Myrtani fight and the 3 Red Dragon fight in Neraka are tougher battles than most of the DKoK regular/non-boss battles. DQoK is another story though....

    Fighter
    Fighter
    Fighter/Cleric
    Fighter/Cleric
    Fighter/Cleric
    Fighter/Thief
     
  8. kmonster Gems: 24/31
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    A whole party immune to death knight fear, this will be an easy game. :D

    I'd take more clerics and less fighters. Kenders are limited to level 5 as fighters but level 8 (12 in DKoK) as clerics.

    A level 5 fighter has up to 70 HP and a thac0 of 16, a level 8 cleric of Kiri-Jolith has up to 90 HP, a thac0 of 15 and far better saving throws, both get 1 attack per round.
    The only fighter advantage is a broader weapon choice but a fighter/cleric can use the same weapons, hits better, gets more hitpoints (more damage with the dragonlance) and can cast many spells.

    For trying both CoK and DKoK with the same party I'd go with

    cleric of Majere
    cleric of Sirrion
    cleric of Kiri-Jolith/thief
    cleric of Kiri-Jolith/thief
    cleric of Kiri-Jolith/ranger
    cleric of Shinare/fighter

    If you're going to play CoK only replace the cleric of Sirrion with a cleric of Kiri-Jolith and the cleric of Shinare/fighter with a second cleric of Kiri-Jolith/ranger.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2012
  9. Blades of Vanatar

    Blades of Vanatar Vanatar will rise again Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Good points. My thoughts were that the single-classed fighters would rise quickly in levels. Which would help compensate for the lack of magical firepower. At least early on. If I change up, I will make the fighters F/Cs instead.
     
  10. kmonster Gems: 24/31
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    It's worth keeping 1-2 clerics pure. You get more HP and level up faster than multiclassed with fighter, besides the hoopaks there are 2-3 magical maces or other cleric melee weapons you'll want to use (full damage versus death knights) and 1-2 characters can do without bows and use melee or slings instead.
     
  11. Mad Weirwood Gems: 1/31
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    Certainly a fun idea. With WIS 16, you can't get level 7 cleric spells, so you don't need to be neutral.

    KJ cleric/thief is the best class when you take only a single kender, but for your party, you certainly want to mix things up. I'd recommend one Majere cleric for their turn undead bonus, and one Mishakal cleric for the super-charged CLW/CSW spells.

    If the AJ is correct, for DKK your max cleric level will be 8. 12 for DQK. The table in the journal can be wrong, of course.

    From the top of my head, I can't say which kender class would give you the best hp for COK and DKK. Maybe a ranger/KJ cleric? That would be the guy you want to carry the dragonlance. I do think you need a warrior class to use it.

    Apart from that, I don't know if kender fighters bring anything to the table at all.
     
  12. kmonster Gems: 24/31
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    Kenders can reach cleric level 12 in DKoK, the AJ is wrong. There a no stat requirements in DKoK (unlike in DQoK) for memorizing high level spells, so you can have a kender cleric of neutrality with 16 wis casting level 6 and level 7 spells.

    I forgot that kenders can be rangers. Ranger is better than fighter, 2 extra hitpoints and (although quite unimportant) bonuses versus certain monster types without disadvantages. It's still not worth having a pure class ranger but ranger/cleric of good is better than fighter/cleric of good.

    A ranger/cleric of Kiri-Jolith is in fact the best kender you can get for using the dragonlance, with up to 81 HP in CoK and up to 89 HP in DKoK.
     
  13. Blades of Vanatar

    Blades of Vanatar Vanatar will rise again Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    I didn't change my party, left it as is. Last night saw me through to the Citadels. i stopped there. Dragon battles are freaking tough with this party! Several reloads for each Dragon encounter. So are battles with many bozaks as magic is not a given to work against them. Without the DL I would stand no chance. Sir Lebaum was actually an easy battle with the MoD in hand. They key to the tough battles with Dragons is to spread your party out to the edges of the battlefield, while yelling with everyone not carrying a DL. Buff the DL wielder(which I have a fighter still carrying, so far so good...) as much as possible(Prayer, Bless, PfE, Resist Fire when applicable) and let him have at it. He still gets mauled in melee without a shield for extra protection. 70 or 81 or 89 HPs doesn't make a real difference, one hit usually kills. Will be different in the later games though.
     
  14. Mad Weirwood Gems: 1/31
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    I'm pretty sure a NG ranger can also be a neutral cleric, (Dwarf R/C of Reorx works,) so you can skip F/Cs entirely.

    As a side note, can you tell me if I understand the Prayer spell correctly: Every PC surrounding the cleric at the time of casting will be buffed, while every enemy receives the debuff, right? So while it makes sense to cast it before combat, you can also get your cleric into the thick of it, and then use it against a bunch of monsters, right?
     
  15. kmonster Gems: 24/31
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    So someone has finally found a way to benefit from Kender yell. :clap: :thumb:

    But I'm surprised that your other characters can't help much in the dragon battles. With gauntlets of ogre power and 2-handed sword +3 you should do 12-27 damage per hit for example and 2 attacks per round with magical bow and magical arrows should also be quite effective.
    I made the observation that dragons tend to use their not so dangerous melee attacks instead of their deadly breath if you're standing next to them.


    You're correct, you can have a neutral good cleric of neutrality, spell and level progression depend only on the deity. So there's no reason to have a F/C either.

    The prayer spell just isn't powerful enough to spend a round during combat casting it.
     
  16. Mad Weirwood Gems: 1/31
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    So, I'm done with COK.

    It's been a very long time ago that I played it, but all in all, I think Pool of radiance is the better low-level Gold Box game. Krynn seems to have been intended as more beginner-friendly than the Pools series. The encounters never felt very dangerous, with the exception of dragons. It also felt like there was a lot less variety in the enemies and encounter design.

    My party:

    Human Knight
    Dwarf Cleric/Ranger of Reorx
    Q. Fighter/Red Robe/Thief
    Human Cleric of Majere
    S. Cleric/White Robe of Mishakal
    Kender Cleric/Thief of Kiri-Jolith

    I maxed stats, and I used the GBC to give myself the HP maximums too. It was way too easy that way. About halfway through, I changed difficulty to champion. As far as I can tell, it gives enemies a 50% HP boost. Very deadly for dragons, but overall not that big a difference. For the endgame, I reduced my HP again. Instead of maxed dice, I used half the maximum, plus one. I. e. 1d10 becomes 6, 1d8 becomes 5, and so on. It felt more balanced that way, and I'll keep this for DKK.

    The only time I had a TPK was when I stumbled upon the green dragon in Neraka unprepared, shortly after setting the difficulty to maximum.

    As for my party - the original intention was to swap the dwarf for a paladin in DKK, as a dwarf R/C obviously won't advance far past the first game. Even so, I didn't need that many clerics, and as a ranger, he never got the extra half attack.

    The other character that was lack-luster was the single-class cleric. There were nowhere near enough undead in the game to warrant my original idea of a cleric with high-level turning. He might have worked out better in DKK, but I don't think I'll keep him either.

    In general, cleric spells aren't that interesting. While my party could pretty much cast hold person on wave after wave of humanoid attackers, there really is no go-to clerical combat spell for more general situations. It's all about the pre-combat buffing, but one or two clerics are enough for that. The Mishakal cleric/mage was nice though. Her cure spells were strong enough to warrant casting them in combat.

    The thief characters worked perfectly. Nothing beats a good backstab to quickly take out tough enemies. Myrtani and Lebaum are susceptible, as are auraks, sivaks and skeletal knights. Admittedly, humanoid enemies go down just as fast if you hit them with hold person, which happened to the prison lord and Skyla. You can backstab in heavy armor, you just have to use weapons that a thief can use, i.e. long sword and hoopak, in my case.

    The XP you get in COK is well balanced. I didn't max my multi-class characters. A single-class mage would have given me access to level 4 spells a lot earlier than I got them.

    For DKK, I intend to replace the dwarf with a human ranger, and the cleric with a human white robe. But I'm willing to hear suggestions.

    Can you give me the low-down on what items can be imported over? I lost a bunch of stuff at the end of the game, but I believe I'll also lose my +3 swords, is that right? What about scrolls and wands? I also got a ring of protection +3 from Myrtani, does that carry over?
     
  17. Mad Weirwood Gems: 1/31
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    Something else I just noticed - apparently, only single-class characters get the 10% bonus XP for having high primary stats.
     
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  18. Mad Weirwood Gems: 1/31
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    Finished DKK a while back. They really don't make games like this anymore. Dave's Challenge on Champion was fun. The final battle isn't that hard to win, but winning without getting drained to hell and back takes some luck.

    Mainly, your dragonlance carrier needs to get his move before the spectral dragons, so he can take out a few of them before they attack.

    My party was as above, with a Dwarf Fighter instead of the ranger/cleric. Near the end, I swapped out my cleric of Majere for a paladin. Majere isn't really worth it. you get better results on the turning table, but even so it doesn't work reliably enough in the areas with a turning penalty. Kiri-Jolith and Mishakal are the only clerics worth taking through the trilogy, imho. Maybe Sirrion, if you want a neutral one too.

    On the ranger/cleric vs fighter/cleric debate a while back: The ranger/cleric is already the better character in DKK. It isn't really obvious, but there are a lot more enemies that the ranger gets his damage bonus for than you would think. Most importantly, the flesh and iron golems you fight in Dargaard Keep and Dave's Challenge, but also the werecreatures. If you add the druid spells, and the unlimited advancement an elf ranger has compared to a fighter, a ranger/KJ cleric makes for a very solid character for a full playthrough.

    A few more tips:

    Olin's Quarterstaff (+3) can stun almost any enemy in the game, including undead. Golems are immune, and death knights can even reflect the stun, so don't use it against them. But it's a great weapon for fighting dragons or level-draining undead.

    Slow seems to bypass magic resistance entirely. Once you can memorize Delayed Blast Fireballs, you should change your level 3 spells to Slow and Lightning Bolt.

    Backstabbing is still great in DKK. My kender took down Soth instantly with a 100+ damage backstab. The hoopak is the only blunt weapon you can backstab with. Great for taking down skeletal warriors on Champion.

    Always cast Enlarge on everyone. It maxes out to 22 strength at mage level 10. It's an enormous boost to your damage output, and lasts a really long time.
     
  19. JT Gems: 12/31
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    Ugh, and R/C was already one of the weakest (because it has no M) of the uncapped combos. Can this be avoided by delaying the training until both R and C are ready to advance?


    As for why C/F/M: kmonster already covered it but the short version is that you need at least a couple Cs, and a C/F/M is better in the long run than than a C/F or a pure C. You can argue that a C/M is better than a C/F/M because it has higher M levels, but you're giving up a ton of melee ability for that.

    If you had to choose between an entire party of triple classes C/F/M vs an entire party of C/M and F/M dual classes, the latter might be better because of higher mage advancement, but that's a false dilemma; the power option is a mix of C/F/M and F/M. (and maybe even one single-classed M?)
     
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  20. kmonster Gems: 24/31
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    I'd train the character ASAP to avoid loosing even more XP, at least early in the game since you get 1 HP each time for training, whether it's in one class or two.

    But it's not too bad, rangers are pretty much maxed out at level 17 and clerics get level 7 spells even earlier. You still have more warrior levels than a qualinesti fighter/cleric would.

    Taking a neutral deity for the ranger/cleric might avoid this bug (never tried), but they get 5 HP less at creation in CoK or DKoK and worse deity bonuses.
     
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