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Bush League Lakers

Discussion in 'Colosseum' started by Aldeth the Foppish Idiot, May 9, 2011.

  1. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

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    I didn't see it live, because I had long since turned off the game at that point, but later on SportsCenter, I saw the highlights of Bynum's play late in the game. Way to go after the smallest guy on the court and level him. Total bush league right there. His vacation is going to be longer than everyone else's, because there's no way he cannot be suspended to start next season. You cannot have open season on the opposing team's players once you realize you're going to lose the series.

    The Lakers getting swept by the Mavs is probably the most shocking thing I've seen in the NBA playoffs. The Grizzlies beating the Spurs was surprising (not that I really understood how the Spurs were a 60-win team to begin with, but still). I really expected the Magic to get out of the first round as well. But the Lakers going down in four - embarassing - and that was an all-out ass whuppin they took yesterday.
     
    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot, May 9, 2011
    #1
  2. dmc

    dmc Speak softly and carry a big briefcase Staff Member Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    I also didn't see it. Bynum's was pure cheap shot, but I thought Odom's play wasn't a flagrant, really, and probably wouldn't have been but for the situation - end of a blow-out of a sweep, what's the point?

    Lakers have had problems with quick guards for years, it's just that this series highlighted it because the Mavs have two lightning quick guys that were just on fire. Made the Lakers look worse than they are. Realistically, if Pau hadn't gone on an early vacation, the series would be 2-2 now, but, hey, them's the breaks.

    Means I have more time to do stuff in the next month.
     
    dmc, May 9, 2011
    #2

  3. The Great Snook Gems: 31/31
    Latest gem: Rogue Stone

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    As a Celtics fan I'm not supposed to comment, but that was really cheap. Throwing a forearm into someone ribcage/underarm when they are defenseless is pretty cheap. There has been talk about the Lakers trading Bynum so it is possible that his new team may be the one hit with the suspension.

    It was an embarassing way to end Phil Jackson's final game.
     
    The Great Snook, May 9, 2011
    #3
  4. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

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    I agree that Odom's foul shouldn't be lumped into the same category as Bynum's. Odom's was a a really hard foul, and at least he did it to Dirk, which if you're trying to move him, you're going to have to use some force. I'm not even sure it would have merited an ejection if it hadn't been so blatantly intentional. I also don't think Odom deserves any type of suspension or punishment beyond the ejection.

    But Bynum's hit on Barea - inexcusable. Of all the guys you're going to level, way to man up and pick the smallest guy on the court. I think Barea is about my size. Stern absolutely has to come down hard on him. If you don't hand out a multi-game suspension, you're basically saying it's open season at the end of a series when one team is clearly going to be eliminated.

    I still cannot believe the number of 3-pointers the Mavs hit. I don't think teams hit that high of a percentage of 3's in practice. (As an aside, it basically was practice - the Lakers could have at least pretended to defend some of those attempts. Most of them were wide open looks.)
     
    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot, May 9, 2011
    #4
  5. dmc

    dmc Speak softly and carry a big briefcase Staff Member Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    I expect that Bynum will be suspended for the first few games next season. It was a punk move. (Realistically, he should have levelled one of his own guards for letting Barea get into the lane whenever he wanted all series. They needed to treat that guy like he was Rondo and make him take outside shots.

    Lakers played OK defense in the first three games (they had a couple of brain dead fourth quarters). That last one, well, it was clear that most of them had already checked out. Nice to see from a professional, two-time champion team, right?
     
    dmc, May 9, 2011
    #5
  6. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

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    I'm a little surprised that some people (including Magic Johnson of all people) are suggesting it's time to blow up the Lakers. I think it's a little premature to write this group off. Clearly, Kobe, Gasol, and Bynum are virtually untradable unless you're getting superstar in return. No one's trading for Kobe at this point in his career (nor will anyone take Artest or Fisher at this point), and I think Gasol is too valuable (despite his disappearaing act in the playoffs) for the Laker to trade. Which leaves Bynum as the only player that is good enough and young enough you're going to get value for.

    Some have suggested that the Lakers trade Bynum for Dwight Howard, but there's no way in hell the Magic would go for that. It would have to be Bynum and "something", and none of the potential somethings on the Lakers roster are viable (either in that the Lakers wouldn't be willing to trade them, or the Magic wouldn't be interested in acquiring them).

    The most simply tweaking they could do is upgrade at point guard. I have heard equally ridiculous suggestions of the Lakers trying to acquire CP3. At that totally isn't necessary. You can do a lot better than Fisher without going for another all-star. If I were the Lakers, you have enough problems trying to find a new coach. Don't blow up the roster to boot. Keep the core of Kobe, Gasol, and Bynum intact. A second tier PG could still provide a significant upgrade from Fisher (who was good, but is just getting too old).
     
    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot, May 9, 2011
    #6
  7. dmc

    dmc Speak softly and carry a big briefcase Staff Member Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    The Lakers have problems in that their pieces are mostly untradeable. Face it, they couldn't trade Kobe even if they wanted to. He makes too much money and has too much ego to go almost anywhere. No one would want: Artest, Walton, or Fisher, as they are all making way too much money for their skills.

    Blake didn't do himself any favors this post-season even though he probably is reasonably tradeable. Shannon Brown and Matt Barnes still have player options, so they can't be traded yet.

    That leaves your bigs - Odom, Gasol and Bynum. No idea what was going on in Pau's head this post-season, but you can't really trade a guy like him because he puts up with being second fiddle to Kobe and can still pump in 20/10 on a nightly basis.

    You can't trade Odom because of his versatility and the fact that if he's gone, you suddenly have the worst stinking cess-pit of a bench in the NBA.

    I think they would be crazy to trade Bynum because, even through his fragility, he's probably the second best center in the NBA, and he can actually hit his free throws. I actually felt that Bynum should have been playing more fourth quarter minutes this season and that's one of the few quibbles I have with Phil Jackson (that and not benching Kobe when he goes into 1 on 5 mode).

    Again, the Lakers main issue is at PG and defending PG. They need someone quick because of the current way the rules are being interpreted. Sure, Chris Paul would be awesome to have, especially if they scrap the triangle, but next year there's going to be a new CBA and I can't see the Lakers being able to spend more.

    Just to be clear, as much as I love his competitiveness, the reason the Lakers are going to sink in the next few years is due to Kobe. His contract is a killer and his skills are eroding, so what happens is that his ego won't let him play second fiddle and his contract handcuffs the organization. You could take the current Lakers, and swap out kobe and Fish for Memphis' backcourt, and they would be championship caliber again because they would have two fast guards and the game would be pound it in the post every night.


    Edit: As an afterthought, the Odom and Bynum fouls should have happened in game 1.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2011
    dmc, May 9, 2011
    #7
  8. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

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    Totally agree. Odom subs for both Gasol and Bynum, and by having him as a bench player you can keep two of those three guys in the game at all times. He's not the problem.

    That's why I say it makes sense to pick up a 2nd tier point guard. (Is Fisher's contract up?) You don't need a top flight PG as a scoring option - the Lakers have plenty of that. The only thing you need a PG for is to chase around the best guard on the opposing team, meaning you need to pick a PG who plays pretty good defense, and that's it. It's clear that Fisher can't guard anyone.

    While I agree that Kobe is in decline (and is likely to get worse in the coming years), I do not think we've reached the point where he's a detriment to the team. He's not the best player in the league anymore, but he's still a top 10 guy. It doesn't hurt to have him on the team, and I think he has 2-3 productive years left where he's going to be better than most shooting guards in the league.

    As you correctly point out, you can't really blow up the Lakers, and it doesn't even make sense to do so if you could. I doubt you're getting a superstar in return for anyone, and trading one of your top guys to build depth never seems to work. It's classic trading a dollar for three quarters.

    EDIT: Are the Heat now the favorites to win the title? Boston won't win three in a row, and I think they can beat the Bulls and the Mavs (assuming that's who they face).
     
    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot, May 10, 2011
    #8
  9. dmc

    dmc Speak softly and carry a big briefcase Staff Member Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    I would definitely put the Heat as the favorites. I had them as the favorites after round 1 when I saw how badly the Lakers were playing.

    Sure, Dallas or OKC could beat them, with Dallas having a better chance due to depth, but I am not sure how likely that is.

    As for Kobe, I'm not saying he's declined to the point of lack of usefulness. My point is that his shots are mostly outside shots, and, when you have two of the best big men in the game, it's silly to have your 2 guard hoisting 20 - 25 jumpers a game. Even as recently as last year, Kobe was scoring in the paint, getting to the line, etc. This year, he's been mainly a jump shooter. He can't dominate the ball and take the most shots as a jump shooter, but he doesn't know that or won't admit it.

    Look at Ray Allen -- you aren't going to find a better jump shooter in the league right now, but he doesn't dominate the ball on that team. If anyone does, it's Pierce, and that's because he mixes it up, can go inside, etc. When it's a 90% chance you're hoisting a jumper, you don't put defenses on their heels.
     
    dmc, May 10, 2011
    #9
  10. Blades of Vanatar

    Blades of Vanatar Vanatar will rise again Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    I would think the key is the Jackson's offensive schemes he is utilizing. Does his offense right now require or need Kobe to drive the lane more often and it's just not happeneing? Or does it require the PG to feed the ball more inside to the big men and less to the SG or does Jackson just give Kobe free reign?
     
    Blades of Vanatar, May 10, 2011
    #10
  11. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

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    Given that Jackson is retiring, we won't know the new schemes with the new coach. (I cannot think of the guy's name offhand, but everyone expects the Lakers to hire this guy who is basically Jackson's protege, so perhaps not so different than what they were running beforel)
     
    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot, May 11, 2011
    #11
  12. dmc

    dmc Speak softly and carry a big briefcase Staff Member Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    If you're thinking Brian Shaw, I think you are mistaken that everyone expects the Lakers to hire him. Had the Lakers won the championship this year, then, yes, it would almost be a foregone conclusion. However, installing more of the same doesn't look so good when the offense broke down in the post-season and the rules favor quick penetrating guards (who have absolutely no place in the triangle offense).

    Remember that the last time Phil left, the Busses were very quick to find a coach that wasn't going to do the triangle in Rudy T. It was only when that became an abysmal failure that they went back to the triangle.

    The triangle is supposed to be a triple post, inside-out offense, that works off of feeding the big men and off-ball movement to find the best shot, whether inside or out. What happens with the Lakers is that Kobe will sometimes go with the triangle, and sometimes he'll sit with the ball deciding how to break down his guy. Once he gets to that mode, the rest of the Lakers stand around, because they know they aren't getting the ball, and their defenders hedge in against Kobe. If that happens early enough in the shot clock, then Kobe sometimes will move the ball and the triangle can restore itself. However, sometimes Kobe just jacks the shot anyway.

    The real problem is that Kobe is so damned good at making really hard shots that he seemingly doesn't realize that all baskets are not created equal. Sure, his corkscrew turn around J from 18 on the baseline is unguardable, but so what. His teammates check out. Plus, when he misses it, he's usually *****ing because he thought he was fouled and it creates an imbalance on defense.

    Kobe gets a lot of calls, but he also doesn't get some "superstar" calls he should get because he's complaining all the time and the refs grow weary of it.
     
    dmc, May 11, 2011
    #12
  13. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

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    It was Brian Shaw. If not him, who then?

    Yes, but he was a proven, HoF coach. I don't know of any big name coaches circulating out there right now. I thought it would be Shaw simply because he was very familiar with the team already... a known quantity so to speak.
     
    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot, May 11, 2011
    #13
  14. dmc

    dmc Speak softly and carry a big briefcase Staff Member Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    Rick Adelman is out there and is known as a good big man coach and someone who can deal with superstars. Jeff Van Gundy might get pulled out of the booth, someone could be stupid enough to look at Larry Brown. Byron Scott is a former Laker and liked by Kobe -- sure he's under contract but that never really slows you down.
     
    dmc, May 11, 2011
    #14
  15. Blades of Vanatar

    Blades of Vanatar Vanatar will rise again Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    I like Adelman, he is a good fit. Larry Brown... he was excellent in Philly, even kept Iverson under wraps for a year or two, but he is a weird guy and some players just don't like him. He is defensive minded.
     
    Blades of Vanatar, May 11, 2011
    #15
  16. dmc

    dmc Speak softly and carry a big briefcase Staff Member Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    Given the title of the thread, I felt it appropriate to rant and moan here. LA Times reports that the Lakers are set to hire Mike Brown. The same guy who couldn't actually put an offense in place for Lebron. So now Kobe is going to have carte blanche to go 1 on 5, just like Lebron did, only Kobe's older, less explosive and less likeable.

    I do not see this ending well and I guess the upside is that I will have more time in May and June to enjoy the weather and my family.
     
    dmc, May 25, 2011
    #16
  17. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

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    Add to the list that Kobe actually has a team around him. Part of the reason LeBron had to go 1 on 5 is that there wasn't anyone else on the team who could play. Who was the second best player on the Cavs? Mo Williams? He was never better than average as a scorer, and was a defensive liability. (The running joke with Mo was "No D in my name, no D in my game.")

    Conversely, Kobe has other above average people on the court with him. Gasol is an all-star when his head is screwed on right, Bynum is above average, and Odom is one of the best 6th men in the league. So Kobe shouldn't *have* to go one on five to begin with.

    As an ancillary comment, it looks like that Heat are going to the finals, where they will play the Mavs. (IMO, both of those series are over - it's only a question of whether OKC or Chicago can push the series past a 5th game - I suspect not.)

    While there will never be an excuse for the victory celebration that the Heat put on before the season started, and while they didn't finish with the best regular season record, when it came to put up or shut up time, it appears they may be as good as advertised.
     
    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot, May 25, 2011
    #17
  18. dmc

    dmc Speak softly and carry a big briefcase Staff Member Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    I'm hoping karma from 2006 comes back and Miami gets no calls and Dallas wins. It was so pathetic how any time anyone breathed on Wade in 2006 he got the foul call.
     
    dmc, May 25, 2011
    #18
  19. Blades of Vanatar

    Blades of Vanatar Vanatar will rise again Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Dirk is playing like a real leader. It would be nice to see him win a championship. His career numbers are really piling up. A championship that he led the way on could propel him into the 20 bEst all-time players category. What other Power Forwards were better? Malone? He had no Championship wins. Duncan? Possibly, though it was rare tht he carried San Antonio offensively. He wasn't a 50 pt threat. Just had a great all around game in his prime.
     
    Blades of Vanatar, May 25, 2011
    #19
  20. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

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    I don't agree with that. Here is a list of players just from the past 20-30 years that I think should be regarded more highly than Dirk even if he wins a championship

    LeBron (I think he will be in the top 10 all time when he's done)
    Kobe
    Shaq
    Duncan
    MJ
    Pippen (he carried that team in MJ's absense)
    Bird
    Magic
    Kareem
    Dr. J
    Moses Malone
    Bernard King
    Isaih Thomas (the player not the GM)
    Charles Barkley
    Hakeem Olojuwan - that's spelling is wrong but you know who I mean

    That's before you consider some of the old timers who definitely go on the list before Dirk:

    Wilt
    Bill Russel
    Bob Cousey
    Jerry West
    Oscar Robertson

    And probably more that I cannot think of offhand. But those are 20 that I definitely would rate ahead of Dirk. Then there's another list of "maybe" players that I think are around Dirk's level, and I wouldn't argue too much if some of the players people thought were a bit better than Dirk.

    Dominique Wilkins
    Patrick Ewing
    John Stockton
    Karl Malone
    Chris Mullin
    Clyde Drexler
    David Robinson
    Joe Dumars
    James Worthy
    Kevin McHale
    Kevin Garnett

    Keep in mind this is what I came up with off the top of my head. I'm sure that I've missed some along the way. The Dirk love is getting out of hand IMO. Especially the comparisons to Larry Bird... really?

    I put him as about the equal of Malone. Dirk is definitely a better shooter. Duncan is definitely better. I have Duncan top 10 all time. Just because he's boring to watch doesn't change the fact he's ruthlessly efficient. I don't know how to compare him though to a lot of other power forwards, as that is typically as much a defensive position as an offensive position. For example, how to you compare Dirk to Garnett? Dirk is obviously a much more prolific scorer, whereas Garnett made several NBA all-defensive teams, while Dirk doesn't play defense at all. He has so little "D" in his game we should just call him "Irk".

    The thing I cannot believe is that I've seen two epic implosions in the last three days. OKC loses a 15 point lead with five minutes to play, and then Chicago one-ups them by blowing a 12 point lead with 3 minutes to play.
     
    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot, May 27, 2011
    #20
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